Major General Short...

[Footslogger]

Looking at wikipedia, Major General Short seemed to have an examplurary record up to 1941. I think he could of been a great staff officer if not for Dec. 7th. More input please.

[topeverest]

Short was a fall guy for PH losses. In 1999 US congress passed resolution absolving him of responsibility. I dont really have a good feel for his experience and accomplishments to rate him, other than to say, history generally agrees that he got a poor shake and he seemed to be a rising star prior to PH.

[Nomad]

Given the information he was given, I would agree that it seemed that the most likely problem would be sabotage. The army is not normally responsible for searching for naval aircraft carriers approaching, that would be the Navy's job. I do agree that he was the fall guy. Garbage in - Garbage out.

[CV 2]

Well, the Navy wasnt the only ones that should have had aircraft aloft on search missions that fateful morning. He had been given war warnings and no CAP was up, not even a token one. I think he rightfully got what he deserved.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: CV 2

Well, the Navy wasnt the only ones that should have had aircraft aloft on search missions that fateful morning. He had been given war warnings and no CAP was up, not even a token one. I think he rightfully got what he deserved.

But Macarthur didn't.

Short didn't cover himself in glory but he wasn't alone. He didn't have the political connections which saved others.

Alfred

[Terminus]

Correct. Short was unlucky.

[jeffs]

Short probably deserves some criticism...But clearly...Macarthur had much more culpability in getting caught with his pants down and walked away a hero (at least to the average Joe).
Connections and PR prove again with enough perfume and surface finish manure can be sold off as gold

[jeffk3510]

I agree Short was unlucky. What is everyones take on Kimmel?

[crsutton]

Lets face it, the problem was that the whole nation was asleep at the wheel. Short and Kimmel were the commanders on the spot at Pearl Harbor. It is true that they took the blame for something that perhaps 90% of the officers in the military and navy would done as well. However, on a navy or merchant vessel there is only one hard written law. No matter what happens "the captain is always responsible for the ship." I firmly believe that is true in any military situation. Kimmel and Short were in charge and responsible for the base and the men and women there. It does not matter that they were not fully to blame. In the end they had to bear responsibility for the disaster. There is nothing fair about war. Sometimes you have to make an example of somebody to make the other 90% wake up and take notice.

[John 3rd]

Kimmel and Short certainly got the shaft. Both suffered serious issues when it came to preparedness but I always wonder what the Dec 7th attack would have been like had there been a full alert ordered such as the previous weekend? Certainly would have raised Japanese casualties during the attack.

Dugout Doug is the one who deserved to be truly relieved of command. THAT was a disaster...

[anarchyintheuk]

It would have been a good idea for the commander of the US's largest military installation to have compared and contrasted the advanced state of radar control and direction displayed by the Brits in the BoB (which wasn't secret to the US) to PH's current system in the year and half that was available to him and perhaps have implemented changes.

The commandant of the 14th Naval District, Bloch, always seemed more culpable than Kimmel to me for any shortcomings on the naval side of the PH attack.

[AW1Steve]

I'm always reminded of a junior officer that I knew, when he was caught sleeping with a junior enlisted female. "But EVERYBODY is doing it!". So at this point the investigating officer asked him "so you were aware of others breaking regulations?" "Yes of course!" Replied the defendant. "And you didn't report this, even though it was your duty to? Is there anything else you'd like to confess to before we continue our investigation?" asked the investigating officer.

My point is , that it's irrellevant as to what MacArthur, Marshall,Stark or anyone else got away with. The question is Did Short do everything in his power to safeguard his command, that a reasonable man in his position would have done? Sorry , in my estimation Short comes up,...well SHORT.His biggest crime seems to have been a complete lack of imagination. Yet even this isn't an adequet excuse, as he had the Bellenger/Martin report at his disposal (indeed he and Kimmel commissioned it) which almost completely described the Japanese attack. Short seems to have been fixated on sabatoge, to the exclusion of all possiblities.

The question to me is , was the punishment appropriate? He was relived of command. He was censured. (as was Kimmel in both cases). What's the alternative, leave him in command and give him a "atta boy"? Of course not. He kept his rank (his permanent rank) , all benefits, privlidges , he was not sent to prison, not broken, not disgraced. Sorry, but it seems fair. Especially when one considers nearly 3,000 died inder his watch.

Should MacAurthur have been tried? I belive so. But apparently FDR felt he was still usefull. FDR had known all of the flags (the service was much smaller, and the president selected and knew personally all flags. He frequently played favorites and jumped some to the front of the line.Like Kimmel being deep selected to replace the fired Richardson). And Mac would have presented a special challenge for FDR to prosecute. Mac had retired from the US Army (Having been chief of staff). He was brought to the Phillipines as a "Field Marshall" (recall that silly hat he always wore) and was re-activated to command the US troops in the PI (a very small percentage of the troops) in a "dual hatted" capicity.FDR could fire him as USAFFE , but not as Phillipine Army commander. And FDR must have felt him of some use , otherwise he would not have ordered him out of the PI.

As far as politics being involved, well of course it was. Every single flag owes his promotion to politics, then even more than now. But once the investigation comes into being, then you are in a crap shoot. Officers will generally vote their true conciences, not what their bosses want. And in the back of every officers mind is the thought "There but for the grace of God".......

All in all, I have to think that things pretty much worked out fairly (Except for Mac's escape.......) but We can"t make a rational decision. We don't have all the facts, never will, and we were not there. [:(]

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I'm always reminded of a junior officer that I knew, when he was caught sleeping with a junior enlisted female. "But EVERYBODY is doing it!". So at this point the investigating officer asked him "so you were aware of others breaking regulations?" "Yes of course!" Replied the defendant. "And you didn't report this, even though it was your duty to? Is there anything else you'd like to confess to before we continue our investigation?" asked the investigating officer.

My point is , that it's irrellevant as to what MacArthur, Marshall,Stark or anyone else got away with. The question is Did Short do everything in his power to safeguard his command, that a reasonable man in his position would have done? Sorry , in my estimation Short comes up,...well SHORT.His biggest crime seems to have been a complete lack of imagination. Yet even this isn't an adequet excuse, as he had the Bellenger/Martin report at his disposal (indeed he and Kimmel commissioned it) which almost completely described the Japanese attack. Short seems to have been fixated on sabatoge, to the exclusion of all possiblities.

The question to me is , was the punishment appropriate? He was relived of command. He was censured. (as was Kimmel in both cases). What's the alternative, leave him in command and give him a "atta boy"? Of course not. He kept his rank (his permanent rank) , all benefits, privlidges , he was not sent to prison, not broken, not disgraced. Sorry, but it seems fair. Especially when one considers nearly 3,000 died inder his watch.

Should MacAurthur have been tried? I belive so. But apparently FDR felt he was still usefull. FDR had known all of the flags (the service was much smaller, and the president selected and knew personally all flags. He frequently played favorites and jumped some to the front of the line.Like Kimmel being deep selected to replace the fired Richardson). And Mac would have presented a special challenge for FDR to prosecute. Mac had retired from the US Army (Having been chief of staff). He was brought to the Phillipines as a "Field Marshall" (recall that silly hat he always wore) and was re-activated to command the US troops in the PI (a very small percentage of the troops) in a "dual hatted" capicity.FDR could fire him as USAFFE , but not as Phillipine Army commander. And FDR must have felt him of some use , otherwise he would not have ordered him out of the PI.

As far as politics being involved, well of course it was. Every single flag owes his promotion to politics, then even more than now. But once the investigation comes into being, then you are in a crap shoot. Officers will generally vote their true conciences, not what their bosses want. And in the back of every officers mind is the thought "There but for the grace of God".......

All in all, I have to think that things pretty much worked out fairly (Except for Mac's escape.......) but We can"t make a rational decision. We don't have all the facts, never will, and we were not there. [:(]

Course' we do. Haven't you read all of the conspiracy theory books on Pearl Harbor? [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I'm always reminded of a junior officer that I knew, when he was caught sleeping with a junior enlisted female. "But EVERYBODY is doing it!". So at this point the investigating officer asked him "so you were aware of others breaking regulations?" "Yes of course!" Replied the defendant. "And you didn't report this, even though it was your duty to? Is there anything else you'd like to confess to before we continue our investigation?" asked the investigating officer.

My point is , that it's irrellevant as to what MacArthur, Marshall,Stark or anyone else got away with. The question is Did Short do everything in his power to safeguard his command, that a reasonable man in his position would have done? Sorry , in my estimation Short comes up,...well SHORT.His biggest crime seems to have been a complete lack of imagination. Yet even this isn't an adequet excuse, as he had the Bellenger/Martin report at his disposal (indeed he and Kimmel commissioned it) which almost completely described the Japanese attack. Short seems to have been fixated on sabatoge, to the exclusion of all possiblities.

The question to me is , was the punishment appropriate? He was relived of command. He was censured. (as was Kimmel in both cases). What's the alternative, leave him in command and give him a "atta boy"? Of course not. He kept his rank (his permanent rank) , all benefits, privlidges , he was not sent to prison, not broken, not disgraced. Sorry, but it seems fair. Especially when one considers nearly 3,000 died inder his watch.

Should MacAurthur have been tried? I belive so. But apparently FDR felt he was still usefull. FDR had known all of the flags (the service was much smaller, and the president selected and knew personally all flags. He frequently played favorites and jumped some to the front of the line.Like Kimmel being deep selected to replace the fired Richardson). And Mac would have presented a special challenge for FDR to prosecute. Mac had retired from the US Army (Having been chief of staff). He was brought to the Phillipines as a "Field Marshall" (recall that silly hat he always wore) and was re-activated to command the US troops in the PI (a very small percentage of the troops) in a "dual hatted" capicity.FDR could fire him as USAFFE , but not as Phillipine Army commander. And FDR must have felt him of some use , otherwise he would not have ordered him out of the PI.

As far as politics being involved, well of course it was. Every single flag owes his promotion to politics, then even more than now. But once the investigation comes into being, then you are in a crap shoot. Officers will generally vote their true conciences, not what their bosses want. And in the back of every officers mind is the thought "There but for the grace of God".......

All in all, I have to think that things pretty much worked out fairly (Except for Mac's escape.......) but We can"t make a rational decision. We don't have all the facts, never will, and we were not there. [:(]

Course' we do. Haven't you read all of the conspiracy theory books on Pearl Harbor? [:D]

To which I must reply with my current favorite quote , "Never belive conspiracy what can be explained by and attributed to incompetance". [:D]

[anarchyintheuk]

Wise words.

[olperfessor]

Back in the days of microfilm, I once looked up the issue of Time Magazine from the week before December 7, 1941. I was surprised to read that apparently everyone (people quoted, not just one writer) knew that war was inevitable, and coming any day now.

IIRC the British knew what was coming, even if they did not have the time, resources and/or military competence to prepare Malaya, and made some bad last minute decisions.

After reading that Time Magazine issue, I was never able to fully recover my childhood lesson about the treacherous surprise attack. It seems clear to me that our bases should have been better prepared.

[AW1Steve]

Indeed.[&o] Afterall, we had been preparing since 1904. [8|]

[crsutton]

You can only imagine what would have happened to them if they were Russian, German, Chinese, or Japanese officers...

[topeverest]

Well said. Leadership has both privlidges...and responsibilities. Both Kimmel and Short did fail by any measure. 2nd chances are for the lucky...and they werent.

[bradfordkay]

To me, the lack of CAP and the lack of search aircraft out that morning was inexcusible. Kimmel and Short share the blame for their failure in ensuring those requisites. Yes, we were short on search aircraft, both PBYs and B17s - but to have none up that morning? No excuse...