January 14, 1945
XXI Bomber Command based at Irkutsk plastered Borzya and Hailar destroying several hundred japanese fighters and bombers. Not too surprisingly, this led to a bit of a back and forth over the plausibility of basing american bombers in russia. Curious what others have to say on the issue. Here's our conversation;
Rader,
"I'm not going to squeal too loudly because I attacked Russia and there are a lot of pro-Japanese aspects to the game too, but it is a bit politically and logistically silly for allied a/c to operate from Russian airfields (and Chinese in large numbers). Not insisting on anything at all, but just wanted to ask your thoughts on it. We do have a HR about it in my other game, and I think negotiating this at the start of the game is a better move by Japan than attacking Russia to deny allied strategic bomber airfields - which IMO is the only reason to attack
In a "normal" game I would probably insist on this because otherwise, once Russia is active, there is zero reason for the allied player to make any attempt to get airfields closer to the home islands. In this game, I'm prepared to give some leeway because it could be argued that the sitation is different with the Russian far east being attacked."
Jason,
"Gotta say I disagree completely.
Arguing it's not historical is sort of a dead end argument since Stalin didn't allow the western allies to operate out of the Far East in WW2 because he didn't want to break his neutrality pact with Japan (until he was ready at least). That's moot now since the japanese attacked russia in 1942.
Arguing it's not logistically impossible is another dead end argument since the spare parts, bombs, etc. needed to support western allied airpower could've been brought in via lend lease. Supplying an airforce in russia isn't any different than supplying an airforce in India/Burma or Australia when it comes down to it.
Regardless of the "historical" arguments regarding this what if situation, not allowing allied airpower in an activated russia is a horribly one sided japanese friendly house rule. We both know how weak the russian airforce (and armored force for that matter) is due to the oversight of the designers. Without the threat of large soviet airbases near the home islands, there's no reason not to attack the russians, smash their limited airpower, and bottle them up for most of the game. Given the "rock-paper-scissors" logic of this game, not having the threat of long range bombers in russia, pretty much reduces the soviets to a paper tiger.
I would not agree to a houserule forbidding western airpower in russia at the start of a game (or any other point) and I think your rookie opponent really made a mistake in agreeing to it."
Rader,
"I don't really have a problem with you doing it, but in a game where russia was not aatcked, I think it would be absolutely necessary. And the 'historical' argument dosen't hold much water only because lots of things in the game aren't historical. But it is totally absurd to say that it would have been tealistic for the western allies to operate large airforces in the soviet far east in 1945. The soviets and western allies were totally antagonisitc about these issues. No allied airforces were permitted to operatre in russia vs. Germany, so it certainly wasn't about the neutrality pact - they were co-beligerents but barely allies.. And in a normal game it would be horible for the game to allow allied 4e bombers to use russian bases. What would be the point for taking any islands hoping towards japan. Were the allies making any plans to use russian bases for any purposes in the invasion of japan. Absolutely not! And russia was active by that point. The allies wanted russia to stay the hell out of japan. And by the logisitc part I mean using russian grease monkeys untrained in dealing with allies ac... But I more meant the problems in china which were the main reasons why the historical start campaign from china was so limited. Yes, pro-japanese, but probably should be traded for no start bobbing of china... Whis is also a bit silly. But anyway, didn't expect you to give on this, just wanted to express that I thought it was silly. May post the debate on the forum just as a curiosity about opinions if that's ok with you? But regardless, don't expect anything.
"
Jason,
"actually stalin did allow allied forces to operate in the european theatre but it was admittedly very limited. for example, allied heavy bombers flew from north africa and hit ploesti and flew on to land in russia on at least one occasion. i think stalin restricted interaction with the western allies due to his paranoia that interaction with western pilots would somehow lead to a revolution in russia. the far east is a much different situation though. i don't think he'd be too concerned about the underpopulated far east revolting against his rule no matter how many westerners ended up in the area.
i think the thing you keep glossing over is the key fact that the far east has been activated since 1942. sure, stalin didn't want the allies in the far east and the allies didn't plan to operate out of russia but they were looking at a neutral russia until august 1945. by then, both sides had enough power to wipe out japan without having to bother coordinating with the other side. in our game though, russia has been active since mid 42 when both sides were struggling vs. the axis and had plenty of incentive to work together.
the way the game works, if the supply and support is there, then it is feasible to operate large air formations in russia or anywhere else. in game terms, the allied strat campaign would be restricted because of the difficulties in supply and numerical av support, not because of "untrained grease monkeys". again in game terms, a level 9 base with lots of av support can support large #s of planes regardless of nationality. the way i see it, dutch, brit, US, soviet, and chinese mechanics are abstracted to repair any ole plane. regardless, even now the chinese infrastructure probably couldn't support an extended strategic campaign and the russian infrastructure is also limited and it'll be interesting to see how much it can support.
you say it's horrible to let western 4Es use soviet bases but that's the consequence of activating the russians so early. you gotta pay to play. it's the japanese players decision if they want to activate the russians. if they do so and the allies use those bases and don't bother with the island campaign, well, that's the japanese player's fault. if they hadn't activated the soviets then the allies would have to do things the historical way. it's not like i could've ignored the island campaign and pounded japan without you having activated the soviets.
all the historical arguments are irrelevant. i think it comes to a game balance issue. the only possible alternative is to say that activating the russians is off limits until they self-activate in 1945. i'd agree to a houserule forbidding western allied use of soviet bases if the soviets remain inactive till august 45 but if the japanese attack earlier, it's only fair that they would have to face an unrestricted allied war machine."
