what is WITE ?

[scalp]

I ve been playing WITE since december, and I really loved this game and enjoyed. But after months of playing I have seriously doubts that this game can really simulate the conflict just like it was happening in 41 - 45.
The problem is about the scale. One week turn, and 15 km hex is smth strange. What this game is all about?! If it is a strategic game, then there re too many small pieces, if it is operational level wargame it can't produce real operations at all, which were appropriate for that period of history. The scale is far too big for it. 15 km was enough for soviets and germans to concenrate much more than just 3 units ( divisions) during the operations. I m pretty sure that this was already discussed on that forum, but is there any chance that we ll get a new map and better developed game scale in future, like it was in WitP AE ?!?!?!

[morvael]

The Soviets can concentrate 9 divisions per hex (3 corps units which are built from 3 divisions each). For Germans I think it would be hard to mass as many units, they already have barely 1 infantry division per hex of the front. That could only come handy when taking such cities as Leningrad but I don't know if IRL Germans ever used such concentrations of force. I don't have problem "producing real operations" with the game, but that's only my opinion of course.

edit: if you will count artillery divisions which can (AFAIK) attack from 2 hexes, you will get even more than 9 "divisions" in a 1 on 1 hex attack on the frontline.

[scalp]

Soviets can do it only in 42 and later, I think. What about previous year? Is there any logic why they couldnt do that? They actually did.
What about operations like Demyansk pocket? Since I play this game I m sure this can't be reproduced at all. Almost 100K Germans were in pocket from february 42 till may 42. As I understand game's mechanic they will be out of supply, and they won't survive winter months and crazy soviet attacks. IRL they were fighting well enough to hold the ground for many months. Another big issue is that this operation looks strange on current map, the whole pocket is about..hmmm 2 hexes only...Later in April Germans made new "corridor", which allowed to supply troops on ground. Its width was only 5-6 km. Not working on this map at all

[morvael]

In the 1942 scenario the pocket consists of several more hexes and looks nice. Of course it's not completely isolated, it has this one hex gap which lets it be supplied which represents the corridor. 

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: scalp

Soviets can do it only in 42 and later, I think. What about previous year? Is there any logic why they couldnt do that? They actually did.
What about operations like Demyansk pocket? Since I play this game I m sure this can't be reproduced at all. Almost 100K Germans were in pocket from february 42 till may 42. As I understand game's mechanic they will be out of supply, and they won't survive winter months and crazy soviet attacks. IRL they were fighting well enough to hold the ground for many months. Another big issue is that this operation looks strange on current map, the whole pocket is about..hmmm 2 hexes only...Later in April Germans made new "corridor", which allowed to supply troops on ground. Its width was only 5-6 km. Not working on this map at all

I had the same view as you until I updated with the latest Beta. There have been A LOT of improvements and one of them relates to the survivability of units in pockets. I am only on the 5th turn of winter '41, and I have some doubts about the Soviets - now too weak, I think - but the game is way better than it was even under version 1.03 IMO.

Don't give up. I was on the verge!

[morvael]

In my 1.0.4 game Leningrad cut off from supply in last week of september 41 held until february 42. I was unable to storm to the part of the city on the other side of the river, I had to ship some divisions to Finland and only then I managed to capture N Leningrad and the Fins joined in mopping up the rest. So... heavily fortified units, sometimes supplied by air from AI, against my force (granted, it wasn't that big, 8 infantry divisions, the rest had to defend eastern approaches to Leningrad) held for 4 months.

[Aditia]

I think the op has a very good point. While the game is strategic by design and scale, the gameplay feels very scripted, probably mostly because of the situation for the german side with the random withdrawals and no chance to deviate from the faults in the nazi economy. Don't get me wrong I enjoy playing the game, for now. I am not sure about the replay value of the game as it stands. In my opinion it needs to get to a point where players can have the option to play a scenraio where they can decide more about their sides economy, withdrawals, etc. making the result of play more determined by ingame decisions, rather than by scripted variables. Don't get me wrong, playing historic scenarios is fun, but like the op said, the scale of the game quickly throws that hostircal feel out of the window, much unlike a game on battalion level scale, like e.g. PzC

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Aditia

I think the op has a very good point. While the game is strategic by design and scale, the gameplay feels very scripted, probably mostly because of the situation for the german side with the random withdrawals and no chance to deviate from the faults in the nazi economy. Don't get me wrong I enjoy playing the game, for now. I am not sure about the replay value of the game as it stands. In my opinion it needs to get to a point where players can have the option to play a scenraio where they can decide more about their sides economy, withdrawals, etc. making the result of play more determined by ingame decisions, rather than by scripted variables. Don't get me wrong, playing historic scenarios is fun, but like the op said, the scale of the game quickly throws that hostircal feel out of the window, much unlike a game on battalion level scale, like e.g. PzC

+1 but I do view WiTE as something of an experiment by GG and Co. The 'real' game will be the next version, which covers the whole war in Europe, so the place to push for these kind of changes will be in that game.

As I understand it, WiTE was largely designed (built?) 10 years ago, but Gary put it on the shelf. He then dusted if off and released it - maybe he wanted to test the current market for this kind of game?

[alaric318]

just my own opinion, but i guess is the point in almost all wargame/s developed nowadays, in design, you sometimes face the -hard- choice to go for realism or playability, choosing the right balance between both is the right decision, in my honest opinion, so, WITE may have some design "features" that favors more realism or playability, but, overall, i think WITE have the right balance between realism and playability most part of the time, you have to have both things in mind when making a wargame, and most wargames, if not all, to some degree, have units order of battle in some degree, abstracted, in favor of realism or playability, if you focus the realism over each wargame you will indeed almost in all cases find "failures" but these that goes for give a better playability for the player, again, is my own opinion, aside all this i will like some "early elite" soviet ToE unit, or overstrenght early mech corps, that is the thing i will do when i have time and if my starting dates for my late 42 barbarossa scenario/mod allow me to do, i mean here, mech brigades an corps are available at 09/1942 and i need both of them at 06/1942, i need to do some test here and see how it works, but the thing what more limits the soviets early is the national morale (for ground elements experience) and the new unit build experience or the merge experience penalty feature (historical for truth but making "slow develop" soviet units.
 
with best regards,
 
Murat30.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: scalp

I ve been playing WITE since december, and I really loved this game and enjoyed. But after months of playing I have seriously doubts that this game can really simulate the conflict just like it was happening in 41 - 45.
The problem is about the scale. One week turn, and 15 km hex is smth strange. What this game is all about?! If it is a strategic game, then there re too many small pieces, if it is operational level wargame it can't produce real operations at all, which were appropriate for that period of history. The scale is far too big for it. 15 km was enough for soviets and germans to concenrate much more than just 3 units ( divisions) during the operations. I m pretty sure that this was already discussed on that forum, but is there any chance that we ll get a new map and better developed game scale in future, like it was in WitP AE ?!?!?!

The mesh (time-space ratio) scale is almost the same as OCS, which is the best manual simulation of the operational level available. The stacking is a bit off--a corps attack frontage was about 8 kilometres, but that might not be that important, particularly as two hexes can concentrate on one.

[Scook_99]

I firmly believe the math from Gary et al is correct. What goes wrong? We cannot simulate the inefficient use of troops on both sides that really occurred. So as every turn passes, we see the compounding changes so that by 1943 we end up with many German ghost divisions. What we see in the patches is changes that need to be applied to take into account us as players to try and simulate a more historical outcome. Unit density is what a game makes it, so this is pretty close, think it works for me.

Somehow, mid 1942+, the formulas need to change a bit to simulate fewer German casualties, and make panzer divisions have some more bite, or make the Russian corps unit slightly less efficient (which wouldn't quite fair to Russian players). In my opinion, from late 1942 on, the game feels more like World War I than WW II. Attrition warfare would be ok if tanks weren't abundant.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Scook_99

I firmly believe the math from Gary et al is correct. What goes wrong? We cannot simulate the inefficient use of troops on both sides that really occurred. So as every turn passes, we see the compounding changes so that by 1943 we end up with many German ghost divisions. What we see in the patches is changes that need to be applied to take into account us as players to try and simulate a more historical outcome. Unit density is what a game makes it, so this is pretty close, think it works for me.

Somehow, mid 1942+, the formulas need to change a bit to simulate fewer German casualties, and make panzer divisions have some more bite, or make the Russian corps unit slightly less efficient (which wouldn't quite fair to Russian players). In my opinion, from late 1942 on, the game feels more like World War I than WW II. Attrition warfare would be ok if tanks weren't abundant.

That's likely to be a problem with Euler integration. You need to use implicit integration or (better) Crank-Nicholson to get stability.

[Redmarkus5]

Sounds very impressive, but would you mind explaining that in standard English for silly old me?

[Aussiematto]

ORIGINAL: Aditia

I think the op has a very good point. While the game is strategic by design and scale, the gameplay feels very scripted,

To some extent I agree, and I've argued here that the germans should be able to expend APs to alter withdrawals etc. But, actually, I think that the gameplay is not scripted at all, compared to most games, once you get through the first year where the geo-strategic environment tends to create a lot of operational similarity between evenly matched players. Example: I am in a great game as Axis, August 1942. I did well in the first year -- Leningrad and Rostov, and trapped a large force in the Crimea (Soviet player had plans for them but they didn't quite work out). I launched massive panzer operations in the south, attempting to get around his hanging flank (he was not defending the caucasus much at all). Here's where we are at currently.

I lost 14 Pz divisions in a terrible cut off situation from my effort to encircle him. I scared the bejesus out of him as he imagined 2 million russians cut off west of the Volga but he played really well to dig them out and crush my finest . He's got massed Guards and tanks around Vyazma which is threatening to undo my central defences and I'm shuttling infantry there as fast as I can; a major offensive up north got me solidly onto a river line north of Kalinin (which I hold) and we are both digging in for a long war. heading south, I'm shoring up my line that runs north south with everything I can lay my hands on infantry wise. But, in the far south..... I am about to take Tbilisi; I've now isolated all his troops in the crimea because I have all the Black sea ports. Rumanian infantry has blocked off Baku, but not yet taken it. I have Stalingrad comfortably and have just encircled Saratov, already holding Engels. I have not much else left, but I am attacking where he is weakest so we will see.

This is the kind of result which I love in a game -- completely unexpected because of circumstance, differing game play styles and a game which, from 30+ years of playing and reading mil history seems to me to get it just right. the simulation is at the overall level not the detail and the in the detail the game feels pretty right now that 1.04 is live. Even if it is not, it can't take away from the sense I always have when I open a turn that I am on a knife edge as the German .

So, the gameplay is scripted only to the extent that it produces the 'skill vs horde' mentality of WWII --- shame is, most of the Soviet generals on here are a damn sight better than the Comrades

[Redmarkus5]

You lost 14 Pz Divs - jeez. That's gotta hurt!

+1 on the rest of your post.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: morvael

In my 1.0.4 game Leningrad cut off from supply in last week of september 41 held until february 42. I was unable to storm to the part of the city on the other side of the river, I had to ship some divisions to Finland and only then I managed to capture N Leningrad and the Fins joined in mopping up the rest. So... heavily fortified units, sometimes supplied by air from AI, against my force (granted, it wasn't that big, 8 infantry divisions, the rest had to defend eastern approaches to Leningrad) held for 4 months.

Had you cut off all the supply ports? L falls pretty quickly when you have

[cmill_MatrixForum]

I don't think the problem is with 'War in the East' in particular but rather with the use of hexes in wargames as a general thing. There are a number of operational board wargames that use 10 miles to a hex (Fire in the East I do believe). From what I understand, operational combat is typically considered to be at regimental/divisional level which this game models. As stated above, I imagine 10 miles/hex is due to a compromise between realism and playability and represents combat in a rather generic way -- not meant in a bad way, but WitE is an odd beast already in that it combines hex-and-counter with weapons systems and troops down to a greater level of detail not usually found in the hex-and-counter genre, so naturally there are going to be some oddities.

As for scripted, to me games such as these are not about altering economics or withdrawal schedules, these just happen to be the game designer's parameters in which the players must work. I imagine that some of the chagrin with unalterable economics is a result of expectations of other similar grand strategy wargames that allowed players to do so. I find it interesting and fun to work within the historical parameters -- don't see it as a straight jacket but rather an opportunity to see if you can do better militarily given the restraints that were imposed on the German military during this time.

[Aditia]

this is not an operational game really, it's on the scale of full campaign

[PeeDeeAitch]

I thought it was a game?

[morvael]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Had you cut off all the supply ports? L falls pretty quickly when you have

Yes, I had. The problem was I was really overextended to do this (was too slow in the initial attack), it was really desperate. I didn't manage to cut off the supply completely before mud hit, there was this soviet border guard between my panzer spear tip and the Fins. Though in the mud I managed to have 3 such units in my ZOC which made the cost of supply so high that all Soviet units in the "pocket" had over 100 mp supply cost, counting as isolated. This way mud helped me to clear east bank. Afterwards I had to retreat my panzers for rest (divisions were down to 20% strength due to having stay a month in the mud far away from railheads) and replace them with infantry. That happened in the early snow. Come blizzard I had to shuffle any free forces to the south because I though Rumanians could protect the flank of my corps pushing into Crimea. Silly me, seems Stalingrad disaster in real campaign should say something about the worth(lessnes) of Rumanian divisions attacked in blizzard. Thus I was not able to mount a successful attack across the river in Leningrad. Even though frozen it was too hard obstacle. Without clearing N Leningrad I couldn't persuade the Fins to join me, so was stuck with those little forces I left around Lgrad. Thanks to the option to ship my divisions to Finland (southern part of the city was then protected by a single division split into regiments) and after 3 or 4 turns to get there from the other side I could storm the city. Then it took 3 more turns to clear the rest and before the mud in 42 hit I was finally done with Lgrad. It was a very rewarding campaign, that made me love WitE even more. Never before I had such a nail biter campaign over a single objective in any war-game I played.

ORIGINAL: cmill

As for scripted, to me games such as these are not about altering economics or withdrawal schedules, these just happen to be the game designer's parameters in which the players must work. I imagine that some of the chagrin with unalterable economics is a result of expectations of other similar grand strategy wargames that allowed players to do so. I find it interesting and fun to work within the historical parameters -- don't see it as a straight jacket but rather an opportunity to see if you can do better militarily given the restraints that were imposed on the German military during this time.

That would be good if the Soviets had this in the same manner - just reinforcements. But they have free will production. So it's really not even a question of doing the code and interface for the Germans, it's already there. It's purely an arbitrary design decision, to have scripted Germans and flexible production for Soviets. Don't know why two different modes? Because it was harder to find historical data for Soviets? I would personally like to have an option to spend AP on creating 1-2 more army hqs, 4-5 more corps hqs, asking OKW to postpone withdrawal of certain divisions or asking them for an extra spare division, or letting some divisions keep their 43 toe instead of adapting the 44 weak toe, which doesn't look reasonable when I'm still deep in Russia in 44 without any major casualties.