OT - They got Osama

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
If they so distrust the world's oldest functioning democracy,

That was 70 to 65 years ago. Different time, different circumstances. You might put the word functioning into parenthesis.

EDIT: Nitpicking here, but Switzerland was before you...

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Telumar

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
If they so distrust the world's oldest functioning democracy,

That was 70 to 65 years ago. Different time, different circumstances. You might put the word functioning into parenthesis.

EDIT: Nitpicking here, but Switzerland was before you...

I am led to believe the current Swiss constitution is barely 10 years old; even stretching the definition of existing form of government only takes the Swiss back to the middle 1800's. The current form of the US government dates from the late 1700's. It is, I believe, the oldest existing defined (e.g. a specific constitution) form of government in any country--and has issues related to that age that are well understood within the US and outside it.

I often refer to the Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index (as opposed to my own semi-informed opinion) when chosing how to describe a democracy. In its latest ratings, the US remains a "Full Democracy".

The form and function of the US Government is essentially the same now as in 1941. In fact, the flexibility of the President to send troops into combat has been slightly curtailed by the War Powers Resolution of 1973.

The war in Europe and the events of Dec 7th, 1941 are largly the circumstances that led to the US changing from isolationism to major international player.

Bottom line: I still don't get where you are coming from in terms of a forum dedicated to the Pacific War....

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Wirraway Ace,
Aye, I wasn't surprised it degenerated. These things always do. The pity is that when the two extremes pitch in the moderate people on either side ( supporting the US but not unquestioningly and questioning it legitimately sometiems ) lose out to the extremists on both sides and no rational discussion is possible.

Hence my Chuck Norris post. If we're going to be ludicrous we might as well be completely ludicrous and, hopefully, remind people not to feed the trolls --- although it probably WAS Chuck Norris [:D]

America is far from perfect but neither is it a demon. Just like everything else it has good and bad. The problem is that when moderates on both sides try to point this out either the "US is Satan" crowd or the "America Roolz, if you post anything negative I'll attack you" crowd pile in and destroy reasonable discussion. It is what it is. The internet isn't really a place for reasonable discussion as there are no significant barriers to entry or curbs on behaviour. Hell, even on this forum which was moderated fairly well it has recently, since jwilkerson left and we no longer have a moderator ) become possible to call a whole bunch of people brainless, unwashed, unlaid lieing weasels and get away with it so we're screwed in terms of long-term debate. The extremes will gain traction and the middle will lose out, as it always does.

Nemo, I liked the Chuck Norris post...

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: Telumar

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
If they so distrust the world's oldest functioning democracy,

That was 70 to 65 years ago. Different time, different circumstances. You might put the word functioning into parenthesis.

EDIT: Nitpicking here, but Switzerland was before you...

I am led to believe the current Swiss constitution is barely 10 years old; even stretching the definition of existing form of government only takes the Swiss back to the middle 1800's. The current form of the US government dates from the late 1700's. It is, I believe, the oldest existing defined (e.g. a specific constitution) form of government in any country--and has issues related to that age that are well understood within the US and outside it.

I often refer to the Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index (as opposed to my own semi-informed opinion) when chosing how to describe a democracy. In its latest ratings, the US remains a "Full Democracy".

The form and function of the US Government is essentially the same now as in 1941. In fact, the flexibility of the President to send troops into combat has been slightly curtailed by the War Powers Resolution of 1973.

The war in Europe and the events of Dec 7th, 1941 are largly the circumstances that led to the US changing from isolationism to major international player.

Bottom line: I still don't get where you are coming from in terms of a forum dedicated to the Pacific War....

RE: your bottom line... Finally someone asks, i already have wondered why it took so long. I don't know ..i only realized that it was the PacW forum and not the General Discussion forum after i felt provoced enough by all the hooray patriotism to post..[:(] You may come over to the TOAW forum anytime .. [;)]

Re your other writings, you sure may be right and i am not anti-american at all and have deep respect for your country's democratic tradition. It's just that i think that your once so proud democracy got corrupted and hijacked. It's blatant. I'm sure i am not alone in this.

English Wikipedia article about swiss history is an interesting read btw.

"In the 16th century, the Old Swiss Confederacy was composed of thirteen sovereign cantons, and there were two different kinds: six land (or forest) cantons and seven city (or urban) cantons. Though they were technically part of the Holy Roman Empire, they had become de facto independent when the Swiss defeated Emperor Maximillian in 1499.[3] The six forest cantons were democratic republics, whereas the seven urban cantons were oligarchic republics controlled by noble families."

Of course they had not that written form of a constitution as the US gave themselves in 1776, but still..[8D]

[Nemo121]

To recap the most salient points so far:

P.s. Nice last post Wirraway, petard, hoist by, own. Those are words which come to mind [:D]

[redcoat]

ORIGINAL: Telumar

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
If they so distrust the world's oldest functioning democracy,

That was 70 to 65 years ago. Different time, different circumstances. You might put the word functioning into parenthesis.

EDIT: Nitpicking here, but Switzerland was before you...

"The history of your institution, of your Parliament, still today influences most of our contemporary political regimes. Your Parliament has become what it is through the protection of individual freedoms – it’s a lesson that you, the British, have given the world. This Parliament, yours, was the first in the world to achieve the results of parliamentary democracy which make you what you are, and you represent the cornerstone of all our democracies."

President Sarkozy of France addressing the British Parliament in 2008.

I think there are several places with a claim to being the world's oldest functioning democracy. [:D]

[TOMLABEL]

Nevermind...............

[Canoerebel]

Interesting posts from Wirraway and Nemo. Thanks, gents.

As historian Stephen Ambrose noted, in World War II the Americans (and most of the Allies) came as liberators rather than conquerors. The treatment of the conquered Axis powers speaks volumes. Not only that, but the German people and army largely fled towards the Americans and away from the Russians. That, too, speaks volumes.

And yet, war is a nasty business with lots of bad things going on. I recall several instances noted by Ambrose in which American troops shot down surrendering Germans, and of course there is the debate over the bombing of largely civilian targets, etc. That doesn't change the fact of who was the good guys, but just proves that even the good guys make mistakes in war or may have to do things that will be brutal.

By the way, Nemo, I find only one flaw with your logic. In offering Chuck Norris, you just have the wrong Chuck. Anybody remember Chuck Connors? If not, go to You Tube and look at the opening of The Rifleman television show from the '50s or '60s. He was TOUGH!

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: redcoat

ORIGINAL: Telumar

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
If they so distrust the world's oldest functioning democracy,

That was 70 to 65 years ago. Different time, different circumstances. You might put the word functioning into parenthesis.

EDIT: Nitpicking here, but Switzerland was before you...

"The history of your institution, of your Parliament, still today influences most of our contemporary political regimes. Your Parliament has become what it is through the protection of individual freedoms – it’s a lesson that you, the British, have given the world. This Parliament, yours, was the first in the world to achieve the results of parliamentary democracy which make you what you are, and you represent the cornerstone of all our democracies."

President Sarkozy of France addressing the British Parliament in 2008.

I think there are several places with a claim to being the world's oldest functioning democracy. [:D]

Well there is the salient fact that while we were fighting you to establish our democracy, your king was still pretty much in charge. Constitutional monarchy is what I would give you full credit to being the first to establish. But it was still in most points a fully functional monarchy. [:D]

And let me add that I personally think a constitutional monarchy is a very good form of government. It has some definite advantages over a republic such as ours in some critical areas. So let it not be said I'm disparaging your form of government at the time.

[;)]

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Of course they had not that written form of a constitution as the US gave themselves in 1776, but still..[8D]

I am not surprised you cite 1776, but the current form of the US Democracy dates from 1787. The much less well known Articles of Confederation were the first attempt to define the governmental system following the defeat (with critical French help) of the British.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: redcoat

I think there are several places with a claim to being the world's oldest functioning democracy. [:D]

More than several I suspect. However, this issue is generally one of definition. The US is pretty clearly the oldest form of democracy (and government for that matter) in its current form--its form dating to the current constitution written and adopted in 1787.

Its democratic institutions are, in isolation, not the oldest. But I suspect there are many Greeks who would take issue with President Sarkozy's view of Parliament as the cornerstone (that stone which is first layed in a foundation) of all our democracies...

[AW1Steve]

I'm thankful the USA is NOT a democracy.....It's a republic, organized upon democratic principals. [:D]

There are many countries that can make good , legitimate claims of democratic government. For instance the Icelandic Althing (kind of a scandanavian town meeting) dates back to the mid 900's. We shouldn't see it as a competition, but as a celebration. And a hope for those people who do not yet have some form of democracy. [:)]

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I'm thankful the USA is NOT a democracy.....It's a republic, organized upon democratic principals. [:D]

There are many countries that can make good , legitimate claims of democratic government. For instance the Icelandic Althing (kind of a scandanavian town meeting) dates back to the mid 900's. We shouldn't see it as a competition, but as a celebration. And a hope for those people who do not yet have some form of democracy. [:)]

True enough, at the Federal level; although some state and local governments more closly resemble a true democracy.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I'm thankful the USA is NOT a democracy.....It's a republic, organized upon democratic principals. [:D]

There are many countries that can make good , legitimate claims of democratic government. For instance the Icelandic Althing (kind of a scandanavian town meeting) dates back to the mid 900's. We shouldn't see it as a competition, but as a celebration. And a hope for those people who do not yet have some form of democracy. [:)]

True enough, at the Federal level; although some state and local governments more closly resemble a true democracy.

Tell me about it![:D] I grew up in a small town in Maine, and yes we had REAL New England Town meetings. And since my family was very active in local politics, I seldom missed one! Good lord , what a free for all that could be![:D] On the other hand, I can seldom recall one that wasn't entertaining![:D]

[redcoat]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

There are many countries that can make good , legitimate claims of democratic government. For instance the Icelandic Althing (kind of a scandanavian town meeting) dates back to the mid 900's. We shouldn't see it as a competition, but as a celebration. And a hope for those people who do not yet have some form of democracy. [:)]

+1

[redcoat]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: redcoat

ORIGINAL: Telumar



That was 70 to 65 years ago. Different time, different circumstances. You might put the word functioning into parenthesis.

EDIT: Nitpicking here, but Switzerland was before you...

"The history of your institution, of your Parliament, still today influences most of our contemporary political regimes. Your Parliament has become what it is through the protection of individual freedoms – it’s a lesson that you, the British, have given the world. This Parliament, yours, was the first in the world to achieve the results of parliamentary democracy which make you what you are, and you represent the cornerstone of all our democracies."

President Sarkozy of France addressing the British Parliament in 2008.

I think there are several places with a claim to being the world's oldest functioning democracy. [:D]

Well there is the salient fact that while we were fighting you to establish our democracy, your king was still pretty much in charge. Constitutional monarchy is what I would give you full credit to being the first to establish. But it was still in most points a fully functional monarchy. [:D]

And let me add that I personally think a constitutional monarchy is a very good form of government. It has some definite advantages over a republic such as ours in some critical areas. So let it not be said I'm disparaging your form of government at the time.

[;)]

I think we will have to disagree over the facts. I believe that Parliament was the dominant force in British politics before the American War of Independence. Anyway – lets not get sidetracked by an old unfortunate disagreement. Our two countries have different democratic systems of Government, but we have a great deal in common when it comes to values. I certainly did not mean to cause offence by making my light-hearted remark about who had the oldest functioning (i.e. continious) democratic institution.

[bradfordkay]

Of course, there are times when I am sure that many of us question the idea that our nation, or any nation, is functioning at all! [;)]

[LST Express]

I think the American people as a whole are still a damn decent people. At least that's been my experience. [:)]

[henhute6]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Regardless whether your prophecies of 'hoax' are correct (I believe otherwise), one has to admire the skill, audacity and planning of the operators that carried out the raid. First class professionalism all the way.

Yeah, nice operation. Gardener shot down one helicopter and special troops managed to kill unarmed Bin Laden.

[LoBaron]

You really think your previous display of lacking situational awareness and blockhead
misinterpretation of symbolic milestones in global politics was not sufficient up
to now, so you feel the need to continue?

Or are you just trying to play baby badass?

I suggest you let this discussion die down and get over it, except in case your goal is
to increasse the percentage of senseless posts relative to your post count total. [;)]