Comprehensive Wishlist

Post discussions and advice on TOAW scenario design here.

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berto
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by berto »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

I'd be worried that if we were to get a full-time programmer
But would he/she/they have to paid? How about a corps of unpaid volunteers?

Now, it is a Very Difficult Thing to pull off--assembling and coordinating a widely scattered team of unpaid volunteers to maintain and extend and improve on a game--but it can be done. (Linus Torvald's genius may not be so much His programming skills as His management skills and charisma--the talents to motivate and ride herd on hundreds of volunteer programmers around the world to work with Him developing Linux. In the earlier years, at least. Granted, there are now many paid full-time Linux developers, not the least of which is Linus Himself.)
Mind, if Matrix decides to go for it, it does open up some exciting possibilities.
To say the least.
... We do have movement -- just rather glacial movement.
With an emphasis on the world "glacial". No disrespect intended. I am in no way judging Ralph, who may have very little time and may be doing this entirely as an uncompensated Labor of Love. In any case, knowing nothing about Ralph, his life situation, and his relationship with Matrix, who am I to judge?
Most people here seem to agree on some desirable changes that don't involve more resources. A clear recognition of the principle that the designer should be able to modify as many parameters as possible, for example. We don't have that yet.
I may be mistaken, but speaking as a programmer, it seems to me that opening up virtually all in-game parameters to limitless modification via game events should not be too difficult. We currently have the facilities to do this with some game variables. "Simply" (ha?) template the appropriate subroutines and function calls across all the other game variables. But of course, again, I could be mistaken. [8|]
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Panama
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Panama »

I can only say this by what appears in this forum which is by no means conclusive but...

It would seem that anything done to the game has to first pass the approval of one individual. If that individual's own personal subjective opinion is that it isn't a good idea then it won't see the light of day. At least that's how it appears.

I've not seen anything that might contradict that but I could most certainly be wrong. [8|]

A more suitable way to go about deciding what should float and what shouldn't would be a group of sorts. Maybe five or seven people. Ralph being one of those people. An idea could be discussed in an intelligent and respectful manner and then acted on.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Telumar

ORIGINAL: Panama

I believe someone went through the list, picked out the easy to do stuff and implemented those that made some sort of sense. The more difficult to program ones will never get done.


Keep in mind that Ralph has a day job and a family.
ORIGINAL: Panama

What has been said time and again is to make everything already in the game available to the scenario designers so they may vary effects during a scenario.

This i can second!
ORIGINAL: Panama
I doubt much more will ever get done as the number of posts in the forum have an impact on how many people actually buy the game and how Matrix views the game's potential financial health.

I don't know how it's in other games' forums five years after the release. But what i can see is that traffic even is fewer than in the "dark days" before TOAW 3.
ORIGINAL: Panama
And yes, if a post becomes a vile bucket of poo it tends to drive folks out into the fields.

yup.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by jmlima »

ORIGINAL: Panama

I can only say this by what appears in this forum which is by no means conclusive but...

It would seem that anything done to the game has to first pass the approval of one individual. If that individual's own personal subjective opinion is that it isn't a good idea then it won't see the light of day. At least that's how it appears.
...

Well, that's the way I do it, and that's the way I've seen it done, and this is not at Matrix.

The crux of the issue is not the process itself (technical decisions by committee rarely allow advancement), but who is the person deciding, what experience it has in that position, what guidance on usage of available resources received from matrix, and so on. I may sound a bit naive, but I'm not really sure who is the person making those decisions around here, so cannot pass comment on that.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Panama

I can only say this by what appears in this forum which is by no means conclusive but...

It would seem that anything done to the game has to first pass the approval of one individual. If that individual's own personal subjective opinion is that it isn't a good idea then it won't see the light of day. At least that's how it appears.

I've not seen anything that might contradict that but I could most certainly be wrong. [8|]

A more suitable way to go about deciding what should float and what shouldn't would be a group of sorts. Maybe five or seven people. Ralph being one of those people. An idea could be discussed in an intelligent and respectful manner and then acted on.

As jmlima says, I'm not really sure a committee is practical.

However, a willingness to accept input and consider the validity of opposing points of view would be helpful. Also, it would be nice to see some awareness of military history and military reality beyond that gleaned from playing war games. Finally, an ability to tactfully differ and/or accept compromise when practical wouldn't go amiss.

I frankly play authority figure in my family; that may not be politically correct, but I do. That doesn't mean I refuse to accept argument, don't solicit and consider the opinion of others, invariably insist on having my way, and never change my mind.

Rigidity is not strength.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: jmlima

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
...

Mind, if Matrix decides to go for it, it does open up some exciting possibilities. But I think there's a contradiction between demanding more programming resources and expecting a renewed emphasis on accurate simulation.
...

There might be a middle path, where the available resources get focused into significant features currently perceived as flaws.

For example, I would venture, that a middle way of having a 'super patch' for TOAW 3 that would be sold for a fee (less than a new game), would probably be more successful, time and cost effective, than heading towards an hypothetical TOAW 4.

Of course, there really is no substitute for investment. But the game is mature enough that we can do without a new version, only adding to the existing one. Matrix on the other hand, might very well say that commercially this is not viable, and that they prefer to spend 5 years developing TOAW 4 to sell it for $150 (assuming current increases in average prices continue).

My guess is that TOAW reached as far as it can go, and from now onwards it's minor tweaks, when and if Ralph has time and continues interested.

Well, presumably our presence and continued interest is valued. It seems to be...

To keep that, continued upgrades are going to be needed. On the other hand, if it would accelerate the process, I for one would be willing to pay money occasionally. When I consider what Talonsoft got away with with WGOTY/ACOW, paying for almost any substantial improvement seems reasonable.

However, and in the meantime, there are a number of improvements that don't seem like they would involve extraordinary effort.

The return of sea roads.

The extension of variable supply points to the 'old' supply system.

A restoration of supply units so that they can work the way they used to. After all, apparently the programming has already been done so that Curtis can keep his new supply units. He can just call them something else. Or call the original supply units something else. I don't care.

The elimination of of the pre-1960 prohibition on helicopters. That's not really of immediate concern to me, but philosophically, it bugs me. If a designer finds 'helicopters' a useful way of representing something, he should have it.

The creation of a second category of rail movement -- except it would be road movement. Most armies did not have fully motorized troops. But they did have trucks, and they did collect their trucks and bus infantry regiments here and there. I don't see why simulating this would pose horrific obstacles. You have a 'road movement' capacity, and you can embus units and 'drive' them along roads. You don't want this to happen, set the capacity to zero. It seems kinda cut and paste to me to create this option. Just copy the rail routines and tell the computer to look for roads.

A 'flak effect' that has a similar effect to that of clouds on air attack values. Sounds doable. Maybe not. I'd at least like to hear Ralph's reaction. After all, that's mainly what flak does. Render air attack less effective. The total flak value of a hex should correspondingly weaken air attack.

Designer enabled/disabled ability of formations/forces to use flak in ground combat. TOAW notwithstanding, a lot of armies at a lot of times just did not effectively use their flak in ground combat. Why is an interesting subject -- but an academic one. They just didn't. Your average 1942 British infantry brigade group may well have had 12 40mm AA attached. They rarely did anything at all for its AT or AP ability. An awful lot of scenarios I look at have an awful lot of flak that -- actually -- rarely or never participated in ground combat in that particular campaign.

Additional tiles for 'destroyable' roads/bridges. Is that really so hard to do? Doesn't sound hard. All that's really needed is to unhook the 'bridge' from the presence of a 'river' -- and create a way of marking it as a 'destroyable road/rail.' Or 'bridge.' Call it what you like. As always, this should be designer-designated.

A designer option to permit airlifting of ordinary units. The non-airliftable equipment would get left behind, just like it does now, so this would stop SS Leibstandarte from being airlifted into the Stalingrad pocket. Hopefully, it would be possible to restrict such units to landing on airfields. Perhaps -- like HQ's -- they could only land on friendly-controlled hexes. That's not perfect, but it sounds simple, and if I can get it, I'll take it. Make it designer-enabled, and then if you don't want it, don't enable it.

As with trucks, armies used to airlift ordinary leg infantry about. The Germans were big on it. I know the British did it. This'd be a plus.

Stack movement for naval units. Why is this hard to do? Embarked land units can move as stacks. Point is that as things are right now, it'd be a convenience -- scenarios where one has a lot of naval units are hell. More importantly, for most suggested improvements to the naval model, stack movement is a prerequisite.

There are other things, of course, and at some point I'll wander into stuff that'll require so much programming that a new release really is called for, but the point is that there are things out there that seem to me to be an inarguable good and that could happen fairly easily -- but don't.

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Panama
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Panama »

A better method of equipment transition is at the top of my list. I'm sure I'll be dead before that happens. [:D]
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by macgregor »

We can only hope that Ralph and this development team are doing more work in private than they are discussing it in public. My friend Steve is developing 'World in Flames' and while it appears to be in the typical Matrix quagmire of over-emphasis on AI, if someone were to make a comment or present a question, it'd be responded to within days, not to mention his lengthy report he provides at the beginning of every month. Quite a contrast to this forum.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by berto »

in re much of the recent discussion:

Small potatoes, low hanging fruit.

Biggest bang for the buck? More like biggest pop for the nickel.

None of this will preserve TOAW's rich scenario legacy, revive this game, or bring back the masses.

Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic ...

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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: berto
Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic ...

Well then, that would be a good thing, now wouldn't it? The Titanic is quite a popular subject and has been since it sank. [:D]
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Stack movement for naval units.

You can strike that one from the list :



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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Panama

A better method of equipment transition is at the top of my list. I'm sure I'll be dead before that happens. [:D]


Yeah. I've outlined my ideas on that score a few times. Again, it doesn't seem like it would be a lot of work.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Stack movement for naval units.

You can strike that one from the list :



Image

Well, good stuff. There actually was quite a bit in that last patch that was good.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by macgregor »

There was nothing about the patch I didn't like. Naturally, by reading my posts you know I wanted, and still want more. Ralph has asked me for some input, which was encouraging. I'm sorry if some see my critiques as over-the-top, but pollyanna is not my style.

I don't mind saying if I had a choice to pay for some real progress, not this sporadic extremely part-time work with the only redemption being that it's free, I'd gladly pay the money. At this point I'm finally becoming satisfied with my investment in TOAW III, which I payed for before Ralph was even hired. Keep in mind, I already had 4 versions of TOAW before Matrix took it over.

Now it's starting to look like Ralph may be AWOL. I hope not. The scenario designers who toiled to produce my favorite scenarios didn't get payed -I know that. Knowing that the game allows them to design and distribute for free is one of things I payed for however. The wishlist was a great idea, I just hope it's purpose was more substance than placebo.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by jmlima »

ORIGINAL: macgregor
... The scenario designers who toiled to produce my favorite scenarios didn't get payed -I know that. ...

Not sure who they are or what scenarios, but on the original release Matrix offered a game to everyone that got a scenario included, which was quite generous of them.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by berto »

ORIGINAL: macgregor

There was nothing about the patch I didn't like.
It hurts me to say this, but for me 3.4 was one step forward two steps back. I'm thinking of uninstalling 3.4, if indeed I don't trash all my installs and--ending a 13-year relationship going back to the very first version--just give up on TOAW altogether. Unless things change, drastically and quickly, there's no future in it. Too much pain, little hope for gain. [:(]
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: berto
ORIGINAL: macgregor

There was nothing about the patch I didn't like.
It hurts me to say this, but for me 3.4 was one step forward two steps back. I'm thinking of uninstalling 3.4, if indeed I don't trash all my installs and--ending a 13-year relationship going back to the very first version--just give up on TOAW altogether. Unless things change, drastically and quickly, there's no future in it. Too much pain, little hope for gain. [:(]

I can't see this. I've been throwing a fit about some things myself -- but at worst, it was two steps forward, one back.

Note the group naval movement mentioned above. The variable flak? The adjustable hex conversion costs? The adjustable supply and readiness loss? The variable entrenchment rates?

All these things deal with what had been major running sores. Variable entrenchment rates -- right there -- allows far more accurate simulation of pre-WW1 combat.

Even the variable supply points are great -- just not usable in conjunction with the old supply units as I would prefer.

There's probably more, too. As far as I'm concerned, Santa brought a lot of goodies this year. I just don't see why I have to eat brussels sprouts....
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by berto »

Two steps back:

--The new default graphics. It seems that most players like them. I don't. (Personal opinion.)
--Breaking compatibility with the older scenarios I'm most interested in. (More a well-founded suspicion than an established fact, admittedly.)

One step forward:

--Most everything else. (Supply aside, incremental improvements at best.)

As I see it.

But mainly: We're so far from where I want this to be, that even if we're stepping in the right direction (arguable), they're halting steps at best. We need to pick up the pace, but I don't see that happening. Growing tired of the journey ...
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: berto

Two steps back:

--The new default graphics. It seems that most players like them. I don't. (Personal opinion.)
--Breaking compatibility with the older scenarios I'm most interested in. (More a well-founded suspicion than an established fact, admittedly.)

One step forward:

--Most everything else. (Supply aside, incremental improvements at best.)

As I see it.

But mainly: We're so far from where I want this to be, that even if we're stepping in the right direction (arguable), they're halting steps at best. We need to pick up the pace, but I don't see that happening. Growing tired of the journey ...

Less than convincing.

I got rid of the new graphics in about fifteen minutes. 'Disable .png graphics' is the key. Find that and your problems are solved. However, I'm making use of quite a few of the new text features anyway. Red stars, for example. Very nice for high-lighting points that play a key role in event mechanisms, etc. Don't mind the oil wells and refineries, either. Did I mention the small font text for points you want to note without implying they actually matter? Peak heights, historical battlefields, etc. Not a big deal, but nice...

I'm in the middle of a match of 'Agonia y Victoria.' Runs fine. Better, in fact. The new patch also disables mouse attacks -- forgot about that. This deals with one of that scenario's biggest weaknesses -- it was very vulnerable to a strategy of diligent mouse attacks.

On the other hand...

The new variable hex conversion costs deal with what was going to be a killer in the scenario I'm working on. I was going as far as a universal constant guerrilla effect for both sides and garrisons for the supply lines to do away with the effect of hex conversion costs.

...and that wasn't really going to be a very satisfactory solution. Thank God for this part of the patch.

...variable supply points are great. As I've made clear, I have problems with what you have to take along with them, but in and of themselves, they're great.

As already noted, the killing of mouse attacks was a major improvement. I've yet to test it, but supposedly there's also something permitting counterattacks against mouse encirclers. That, too, would be a major step forward.

So I can't see your argument.

You say we 'need to pick up the pace.' I think we just did. This patch addresses more serious problems than any I can recall.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: berto

Two steps back:

--The new default graphics. It seems that most players like them. I don't. (Personal opinion.)
--Breaking compatibility with the older scenarios I'm most interested in. (More a well-founded suspicion than an established fact, admittedly.)

1) Weak, very weak. Like the man said, you can disable the new graphics. A huge non issue and actually digging very very deep for a non existant negative.

2) Well hell yes you'll break compatibility with a lot of the old scenarios. If you have a Volkwagen and put a V-8 in it you'll need to throw out the old carb. Otherwise you won't be able to change but very little. However, you can disable most if not all of the new stuff and keep your old scenarios or put in a second TOAW unpatched.

If you are worried about old scenarios getting broken then you'll never get anything more than what was there before last patch.
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