Out of Pilots Again

[Jzanes]

Hi Michael,

My opponent (Rader) and I are in 12/44 and we updated to the latest beta patch (1108m2) hoping it would take care of our problem with running out of pilots. We had one turn where we could both pull lots of pilots but on the 2nd turn post-patch and every turn since, we've been unable to get any pilots.

Could you take a look at this save and see if you can free up anymore inactive pilots?

Any chance of having the array increased above 50,000 in a later patch? I've done some work adding up the various pilot totals and it looks like any late war game is going to need more than 50,000 pilots.

As always, thanks for the help.

[michaelm75au]

Increasing the size would most likely invalidate any current saves, and possibily break Tracker and WITPstaff.

[Jzanes]

It would be a shame to have my PBEM match end because of an insufficient pilot array but I'd rather see the array increased and have to restart. I wonder if Tracker and WITPstaff can be made compliant with the larger array.

Speaking for myself, I won't be starting any new matches unless this pilot issue is fixed. It's just too depressing to put in so much time just to have it all quickly fall apart due to a design fault.

Maybe there can be some sort of optional patch that increases the array for those that are ready to start a new game and don't mind losing tracker/witpstaff. Anyways, thanks for the feedback MichaelM.

[thegreatwent]

This is a great concern to myself and my PBEM opponents.  Any word on a work around or a fix would be most welcome.

[inqistor]

Well, if KIA/MIA pilots can be deleted, so is WIA.

After all, who would want back guy, who spent last sixteen months in hospital? And, when you have lost both hands, you can be qualified as WIA, but you surely never fly again.


What is the possibility to apply array resize AFTER loading save?
There were implemented question about database upgrade in ongoing games.

[Nemo121]

Especially with the changes to pilot management making it easier to train a large pool of pilots I could see many games running into this problem.

It seems to me we need either larger pilot numbers OR more aggressive culling of previous pilots from the game so as to keep overall tracked numbers down.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Jzanes

Hi Michael,

My opponent (Rader) and I are in 12/44 and we updated to the latest beta patch (1108m2) hoping it would take care of our problem with running out of pilots. We had one turn where we could both pull lots of pilots but on the 2nd turn post-patch and every turn since, we've been unable to get any pilots.

Could you take a look at this save and see if you can free up anymore inactive pilots?

Any chance of having the array increased above 50,000 in a later patch? I've done some work adding up the various pilot totals and it looks like any late war game is going to need more than 50,000 pilots.

As always, thanks for the help.

Little sympathy here ... you knew there was a problem with a 50K limit and instead of managing the problem responsibly you both "pulled lots of pilots" and now are wondering why you couldn't in subsequent turns.

OK - so you've hit the current 50K limit and that's a bad design decision especially since more pilots can be drawn into groups than their max - but as in witp it could be managed and managed adequately by deciding on limits. The array is big enough to not have problems - I tested Scen 1 and the max planes from all grps are 43430 (OK didn't account for increase sizes or withdrawals) ... but your problem speaks to maxing out too many groups beyond the max pilots. So another good design decision (I like the feature) but not thought through regarding the array size needed.

[*]So no longer draw pilots beyond max especially for reserve/ training grps
[*]Withdraw grps and lose the pilots you don't need. I'm sure you don't need to be using all those grps in backwaters.
[*]Use Tracker to look at the numbers and come to an agreement on pilot limits for both sides.
[*]Don't replace pilots lost with new pilots; remove pilots from other groups and transfer them to front line units.
[*]etc

In the end the array size will probably need to be increased; but what happens when the 100K limit is reached? Think of it as another logistics hurdle - something that needs to be managed. I guess I'm being a little harsh here - but hitting a problem, getting help and then ramming your hand back into the chain-saw is just a little strange.

ORIGINAL: michaelm
Increasing the size would most likely invalidate any current saves, and possibily break Tracker and WITPstaff.

Yep speaking about Tracker it would break it until a later release.

[Lifer]

Is it possible to avoid running out of pilots if you don't send pilots to the reserve? If you don't put your squadrons to 133%? Ready to ask for a HR if there are enough pilot slots without a training program.

Greg

[Jzanes]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

ORIGINAL: Jzanes

Hi Michael,

My opponent (Rader) and I are in 12/44 and we updated to the latest beta patch (1108m2) hoping it would take care of our problem with running out of pilots. We had one turn where we could both pull lots of pilots but on the 2nd turn post-patch and every turn since, we've been unable to get any pilots.

Could you take a look at this save and see if you can free up anymore inactive pilots?

Any chance of having the array increased above 50,000 in a later patch? I've done some work adding up the various pilot totals and it looks like any late war game is going to need more than 50,000 pilots.

As always, thanks for the help.

Little sympathy here ... you knew there was a problem with a 50K limit and instead of managing the problem responsibly you both "pulled lots of pilots" and now are wondering why you couldn't in subsequent turns.

OK - so you've hit the current 50K limit and that's a bad design decision especially since more pilots can be drawn into groups than their max - but as in witp it could be managed and managed adequately by deciding on limits. The array is big enough to not have problems - I tested Scen 1 and the max planes from all grps are 43430 (OK didn't account for increase sizes or withdrawals) ... but your problem speaks to maxing out too many groups beyond the max pilots. So another good design decision (I like the feature) but not thought through regarding the array size needed.

[*]So no longer draw pilots beyond max especially for reserve/ training grps
[*]Withdraw grps and lose the pilots you don't need. I'm sure you don't need to be using all those grps in backwaters.
[*]Use Tracker to look at the numbers and come to an agreement on pilot limits for both sides.
[*]Don't replace pilots lost with new pilots; remove pilots from other groups and transfer them to front line units.
[*]etc

In the end the array size will probably need to be increased; but what happens when the 100K limit is reached? Think of it as another logistics hurdle - something that needs to be managed. I guess I'm being a little harsh here - but hitting a problem, getting help and then ramming your hand back into the chain-saw is just a little strange.

ORIGINAL: michaelm
Increasing the size would most likely invalidate any current saves, and possibily break Tracker and WITPstaff.

Yep speaking about Tracker it would break it until a later release.

Your tone is a little more cheeky than is really required but for the record I have a grand total of 4000 pilots in general/group reserve. For 20,000 some airframes on the map currently, that doesn't seem too excessive to me. Those 4000 "extra" pilots are broken up into 14 different nationalities and 5 different "specialties" (fighter, bomber, transport, recon, patrol). I'm receiving 1 new air unit per day on average needing anywhere from 10-40 new pilots. Most are already arriving with 0 pilots since none are available. And I'm still in 1944. In 1945 new arrivals and groups resizing (bigger) will really ramp up. the math adds up to a big problem even if you use the n01487477 system for "managing the problem responsibly".

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lifer

Is it possible to avoid running out of pilots if you don't send pilots to the reserve? If you don't put your squadrons to 133%? Ready to ask for a HR if there are enough pilot slots without a training program.

Greg

What makes sense to me is to limit the size of your reserve, and instead increase the quality of that reserve. When you have a batch of pilots that have met your criteria for "graduation" and you move those pilots from a group you use for training to the reserve, then you need to pull pilots into that group to train. Instead of automatically getting new pilots, look at your reserve and pull in any pilots there that are below your minimum criteria. Train them up to the minimum before putting them back into the reserve.

When you your entire reserve trained up to those "graduation standards", then increase the size of the reserve. Then you make the next decision - how big shall the reserve be for each type? Suppose you decide to have 1,500 fully qualified fighter pilots in reserve. When you reach that 1,500, use your designated training squadrons to train those 1,500 pilots to even higher and higher levels.

This approach might be one answer.

[erstad]

Damian, are the pilot IDs in Tracker tied to the 50,000 indices? I have a game in late 44, and the highest index is 25,000 so I'm wondering if there's a separate space for IJN and Allies or if we really only have 25,000 or if the allies and IJ start in different regions but share the whole array or ???

Basically, I'm trying to assess how close the game is to the limit so we can see if we need to take any preemptive actions.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Jzanes

ORIGINAL: n01487477

ORIGINAL: Jzanes

Hi Michael,

My opponent (Rader) and I are in 12/44 and we updated to the latest beta patch (1108m2) hoping it would take care of our problem with running out of pilots. We had one turn where we could both pull lots of pilots but on the 2nd turn post-patch and every turn since, we've been unable to get any pilots.

Could you take a look at this save and see if you can free up anymore inactive pilots?

Any chance of having the array increased above 50,000 in a later patch? I've done some work adding up the various pilot totals and it looks like any late war game is going to need more than 50,000 pilots.

As always, thanks for the help.

Little sympathy here ... you knew there was a problem with a 50K limit and instead of managing the problem responsibly you both "pulled lots of pilots" and now are wondering why you couldn't in subsequent turns.

OK - so you've hit the current 50K limit and that's a bad design decision especially since more pilots can be drawn into groups than their max - but as in witp it could be managed and managed adequately by deciding on limits. The array is big enough to not have problems - I tested Scen 1 and the max planes from all grps are 43430 (OK didn't account for increase sizes or withdrawals) ... but your problem speaks to maxing out too many groups beyond the max pilots. So another good design decision (I like the feature) but not thought through regarding the array size needed.

[*]So no longer draw pilots beyond max especially for reserve/ training grps
[*]Withdraw grps and lose the pilots you don't need. I'm sure you don't need to be using all those grps in backwaters.
[*]Use Tracker to look at the numbers and come to an agreement on pilot limits for both sides.
[*]Don't replace pilots lost with new pilots; remove pilots from other groups and transfer them to front line units.
[*]etc

In the end the array size will probably need to be increased; but what happens when the 100K limit is reached? Think of it as another logistics hurdle - something that needs to be managed. I guess I'm being a little harsh here - but hitting a problem, getting help and then ramming your hand back into the chain-saw is just a little strange.

ORIGINAL: michaelm
Increasing the size would most likely invalidate any current saves, and possibily break Tracker and WITPstaff.

Yep speaking about Tracker it would break it until a later release.

Your tone is a little more cheeky than is really required but for the record I have a grand total of 4000 pilots in general/group reserve. For 20,000 some airframes on the map currently, that doesn't seem too excessive to me. Those 4000 "extra" pilots are broken up into 14 different nationalities and 5 different "specialties" (fighter, bomber, transport, recon, patrol). I'm receiving 1 new air unit per day on average needing anywhere from 10-40 new pilots. Most are already arriving with 0 pilots since none are available. And I'm still in 1944. In 1945 new arrivals and groups resizing (bigger) will really ramp up. the math adds up to a big problem even if you use the n01487477 system for "managing the problem responsibly".

Yeah I'm being a little cheeky - but having stated that you've got 4000 pilots in reserve, a whole 25%; which count against the pilot totals - I'll continue and say that instead of drawing pilots from the imaginary pilot training pools (which don't count against the 50K until drawn) but draw down from the reserve your problems will be much less severe. So I'm with witpqs on this one - limits and quality in the reserve pools.

I get the point of having thousands of pilots reserved ready to be reallocated to fighting units, but I think your being a bit of a hoarder here. 50K might not be enough - but then what would be ? 50K is workable, just not how you want to work it.[;)]

ORIGINAL: erstad
Damian, are the pilot IDs in Tracker tied to the 50,000 indices? I have a game in late 44, and the highest index is 25,000 so I'm wondering if there's a separate space for IJN and Allies or if we really only have 25,000 or if the allies and IJ start in different regions but share the whole array or ???

Basically, I'm trying to assess how close the game is to the limit so we can see if we need to take any preemptive actions.

OK - pilots from all nations are all mixed up (you can see this in the editor too). The total array size is 50K. In Tracker we use the array position as the index for the pilot ID, so you should be able to see above 25K; I think (with no certainty) that IJ pilots mostly go at the beginning of the array and Allied later - but I'll have to do some testing and get back about that. And there is no 50-50 rule regarding its use.

Cheers

[Jzanes]

We'll be using up our reserves (do we have a choice?) but here's the problems as I see it;

1. At least for the allied side, the different national pools will run out at different rates. For example, the Americans will probably be able to shuffle pilots and keep their front line units up to strength for quite a while but the smaller nations will start being paralyzed very quickly. For example, the British currently have about 1500 airframes on the map and 300 pilots in reserve. They are due to receive 450 more airframes by the end of the war. They have about 100 airframes training and about 100 transport planes. These will be the first units to lose their pilots. But the loss of these units will eventually hurt and hurt badly.
The Soviet situation is even worse. In our game the soviets were activated in 1942 and their airforce was pretty much gutted (don't get me started on lack of airframe replacments for the soviets..). They are currently 1600 airframes and 900 pilots understrength. They are due to receive 1450 new airframes before the end of the war. And they have 300 pilots in reserve. There is no way the soviets are going to be able to effectively use their historical air strength. No soviet units are training units and they have about 50 transport planes to pull pilots from.

2. I'm a micromanager at heart and I probably take longer to complete a turn than most but even for me, the 4-6 hours to complete the late war allied turns is getting tiresome. As I get closer and closer to 1:1 pilots:airframes, the micromanagement is going to get worse and worse. It takes a long time to go thru each squadron trying to figure out which group reserve pilots can be sent to general reserve and then more time to find and add them to a needy squadron. This shell game is only going to get worse as demand goes up and supply stays the same.

3. Pilots shortages will start altering the strategies. Knowing that your facing pilot shortages and air units losing functionality, players are going to start altering the way they play. I want to plan my war based on the usual things like force levels and logistics, not on a limited pilot array.

I don't need unlimited pilots but I think setting the pilot array at 150% of total maximum pilot demand would make the game playable until the end of the war. From what others have posted and what I've come up with in trying to add up all the different pilot numbers, I'd say about 90,000 would be a good ballpark number.

[witpqs]

Michael,

This might be wacky, but how about a button/function/whatever for the player to dismiss/delete a pilot? That way a player could go through say, the Reserve list and get rid of the lower skilled pilots that he figured were no longer needed. That would allow a player to trim their pilot pool and keep things running more in tune with their own style of play.

[castor troy]

as there have been more players saying they ran out of slots I fear that most, if not all (when you exclude those that ignore pilot training completely), are going to run into that problem when their PBEM is going to go well into 45. To me, it doesn´t look like jzanes overdid with his reserve pools, not at all considering the date of his campaign.

As I doubt that even 5% of the PBEM reach 45 it may only be an annoyance for the big majority of players, but for those that actually got a good PBEM and are entering 45 it is pretty much the worst that can happen as they just have to stop the game as it can´t be continued without pilots. And as these players haven´t done anything else than used the game´s possibilities (means training and the pools for it) it´s hard to understand what they actually did wrong. Of course from a publisher´s aspect you can´t tell people they a) got new functions and features and b) can´t play well into 45 if they use these features as it´s going to break the PBEM in the end. Not critisizing someone personally but the issue sure is a problem and I´m well prepared to see my PBEM stop all out of a sudden due to the same problem, which would be a real shame. [:(]

[n01487477]

Yep - having read Jzanes well considered response, I've reversed my previous stance and think that it should be looked into. I know Michael is a one man band at present; but providing enough saves as evidence of this; where players haven't overstepped the bounds of reasonable allocation might convince him to look into it more closely.

And Tracker will be updated quickly to overcome this issue too.[;)]

[castor troy]

can only hope for a change or not to run into this problem. Ok, perhaps I should win the war faster. [:D]

[beppi]

One not and one question.

1.) I like the idea to fire (delete) pilots from the pools. There are often bad quality pilots which you either could train up or keep them in the pool. If you already have enough pilots it is questionable if it is worth to train the to a sufficient level. So a fire button for pilots would be quite nice.

2.) Would it be possible to display it in game how much pilots are currently used so that precautionary action can be taken prior to running out of pilots. In my game currently i moved the entire Russian air force to the pool and started a new training cycle at 1/44. This was just done more or less for fun as i do not think i will really need that many pilots. In any case i would just fire the new trainees if necessary (need the fire button !)

[michaelm75au]

Is the ability to add 33% more pilots than is needed for the group really required? In RL, did groups consistently have that many more pilots even if the group had no operational planes?

I am being to question the original design decision that allowed 12 extra pilots in a 36-plane group. Afterall, we only allow an extra 4 planes as reserves.
Maybe +10% or 5 pilots extra is more plausable for operational groups. Dedicated training groups would not be affected by this.

[Numdydar]

In my Dad's squadron of B25's in 42-43 they had zero spare crews. Everyone flew as 90% of the training took place in the US. By the time you got to the theater, it was assumed by the commandors that you were combat ready and could fly missions. Of course many of these 'first' missions were planned to be milk runs versus major raids [:)]
 
My impression from playing the game is that the ability to add 33% more pilots was mainly to help the Japanesse player to increase the number of training pilots (maybe to help the Jap AI?). Given the abundance of US pilots and training available, why would an Allied player even bother stuffing their pilot pools like that? By the time 44-45 rolls around the Allies should have attrited the Japanesse pilot pool to the point where even poorly train Allied pilots would be able to be effective. At least that is my impression.
 
The main issue is that if the game allows this then people will use it (another good example of 'build it and they will come' [:D]). So I cannot fault them for doing what the game allows.
 
Rather than setting code up for a fire button, could the game just be coded to remove pilots from the database once they are KIA or missing for some period of time (60 days?). I for one could care less about knowing the fate of a pilot that dies in '42 when it is now '44. Of course if that would not work, then the fire button would be an option. Matbe we could record Trumps voice saying 'You're Fired!' each time the button is used [:D]