Sweep Coordination

[The Gnome]

I'm having trouble multiple squadrons to coordinate on sweep missions.

I have 7 Fighter Squadrons (6x P47, 1xP51A) split between Mandalay and Schwebo, set to use droptanks and sweep Rangoon. The squadrons all sweep, but do not coordinate at all.

Based on my forum searches I've done the following:

1) Set all squadrons at the same altitude
2) Have Air HQ's in range with good leaders
3) All squadrons are at least 60+ exp, and most are Flying Circus quality
4) All squadrons have leaders with good stats, including air rating and aggression
5) All Bases are awash in supplies
6) No bases are overstacked
7) All bases have ample Aviation Support
8) No bases have any damage.

[crsutton]

You know what. I have read all sorts of voodoo solutions for getting my sweeps to coordinate and have tried them all but to tell the truth, not one has worked with any sort of regularity. I doubt that there is a way to make it work and don't think we will see it get much better. I am happy to get some coordination on about 20% of my sweeps.
 
Sometimes it all works but most of the time it does not. I find that units seem to coordinate more often when set to sweep from different bases but that is not too reliable either.

[The Gnome]

Yeah, I'm not sure what else I can try. Rangoon is 9 hexes from Shwebo, the limit of the P47's range when using drop tanks, and 8 hexes from Mandalay. Perhaps the extreme range is interfering with coordination in this case. The only other thing that I can think of that could possibly interfere, I don't know why it would, is that I had each squadron assigned to 30% CAP.

I can also add, I stood down the squadrons for a few days to eliminate fatigue. I'll get them rested and repaired again and see if removing them from CAP duties will help.

[inqistor]

Your main solution will be:

Use bigger units [:)]
As they will always fly as one strike.

But yeah, the longer the range, the bigger the chance of uncoordinated strike. And I think, that drop tanks are used exactly as extreme range, so your planes fight at disadvantage.

[alanschu]

Isn't a problem going to be that you are literally using so many planes?

That's probably what, 200+ planes?

[LoBaron]

Taken from my coordination guide:

"A comment on sweeps in general

It was confirmed by the devs that sweep missions do not coordinate. The altitude coordination guide refers to bombing missions
and their assigned escorts.

This does NOT mean though that the time of arrival for sweep missions cannot be influenced!
Flight time is determined (besides time of launch) by cruise speed and rate of climb/mission altitude.

So you have tools to influence whether the sweep arrives when you want it to."


This means: sweeps do not form into strike packages. They are highly dependent on luck to arrive on target at the same time
(at least as compared to escorted strikes). Naturally the more sweep missions you fly the higher the chance of some of them arriving over
target at the same time.
OTOH: If you are trying to make sweeps arrive before a strike on the same target you can influence this very accurately, becasue then factors like climb,
cruise speed and range to target come into play.

[The Gnome]

Thanks Lo Baron, that answers a lot. I may try sending a single bomber unit in with them to see if it changes the outcome. I wonder if the AI is working with the same sweep coordination rules. My AI opponent was sweeping with upwards of 160 Oscars without much of a problem.

[jeffs]

Japanese planes seem to sweep much easier (in PBEM)...Which is a bit odd as they did not have as many radios as the Allies....

[LoBaron]

The effect you should see, if you set the sweeps to the same alt as the single bomber squad, is that becasue off the better climb and higher cruise speed
the sweeping fighters should arrive on average on target before the bombers do.
It does not improve the coordination between the different sweeping squads though. There is no coordination between them.
What you see there (and could be misinterpreted as coordination) is just a numbers game. 160 fighter, many of them simply have to arrive over target at the
same time, more so if they are planes with the same cruise speed and climb rate originating form bases with the same distance to target.

Sometimes I am not sure if everybody understands what coordination means. Coordination means: You 3 escort fighter squads, fly close cover for those 4
bomber squadrons and try to engage any CAP trying to get to the bombers." Nothing else. It applies to any bombing mission plus their escort mission.
Coordination carried out successfully could mean 2 fighter squads of this strike arriving on target with the first 3 of the bomber units (1 combat animation)
and the last fighter squad protacting the straggling bomber formation (another combat animation).

Same time over target happens all the time (different squads fighting it out in a single combat animation) without coordination, because there are so
many air missions taking place at the same time, the governing force simply is chance.

Coordination is not a black an white thing either. Between coordinated and uncoordinated there are loads of grey zones. A percieved uncoordinated attack could well
be caused by CAP successfully separating the escorts from the bombers. This for example does not mean the coordination did not work, rather the
escorts have been overwhelmed.

The Luftwaffe tried those tactics quite often with varying success against heavy bomber formations and their escorts. The hit the escorts with lightweight
high-alt fighters like the 109G-10 to clear the path for the FW190s or heavy two engine fighters to engage the bombers. It didn´t always work but as
long as the numbers of planes used on those missions on both sides were roughly comparable, if it worked, the losses for 8th AF were high.
This was not escorts missing their bombers (not "uncoordinated"), it was simply a successful bounce on the escorts. You can´t protect bombers
well if you fight for your own life.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: jeffs

Japanese planes seem to sweep much easier (in PBEM)...Which is a bit odd as they did not have as many radios as the Allies....

In our PBEM I have yet to see this.

What you may get the impression from is that the Japanese side (often self afflicted) has less different airframes to play with.
That often means: identical cruise speed, identical climb. The governing values for ToT without additional coordination.

The Allies got Warhawks, Hurricanes, Lightnings, Airacobras, Kittyhawks, Wildcats, Buffaloes,... and those broken up into their different versions.

In addition the EXP values, at least at the earlier stages of the war are highly variable on the allies side while quite homogenous on the Japanese.

In our game the Burma air war, where most of the air action takes place, shifts from side to side, sometimes Rob has the upper hand, sometimes Mike
gets through and dishes out. If he did this with one airframe only Rob would already own the skies.
Mike uses Nicks as sweepers or LRCAP for example, a very good plane if used wisely.

In my opinion, relying on 1-2 airframes as the Japanese player is a disadvantage on the long run, because there are many different Japanese fighters which
can be used in specialised roles and neglecting this artificially limits the options available.

[jeffs]

Yes...But I have found even my planes flying from the same base and the same airframe and nearly identical experience do not  arrive together. Just wave after wave of each seperate squadron (I would be more understanding if the airframes did waves..But not the same plane from the same airfield.

[LoBaron]

Jeffs, which part of "sweeps do not coordinate" was unclear?

Arrival on target at the same time can be caused by many things and lot of randomness.

Those Japanese fighters sweeping you early war might have been those 80+ exp, 75-90 air skill pilots with very high aggression commanders
through the bench, flying the same airframe against low performance CAP. Draw your own conclusions. [;)]

Edit: Also don´t forget that IJ unit size is larger on average. For 80 fighters over target on sweep, only 2 large fighter groups
have to arrive at the same time. To reach the same number the Allies usually need 4 squads.

[jeffs]

My point was simple. Even homogenous units with good skills/experience rarely seem to coordinate on the Allies side.
 
Your point about 40 plane units is noted.

[castor troy]

forget to try to get bigger sweeps with the usual 25 ac fighter squadrons of the USAAF. Noone managed to do that on a regular basis as it seems not to be designed to do that - it´s the new strike routine. If you get your squadrons to fly as a whole instead of coming in as < squadron sized sweeps and they come in before the bombers then you can call it a lucky day already. 90% of the time in a PBEM from 41-45 you will end up with your squadrons coming in one by one with at least 50% of all bombers and escorts already having arrived.

Speed and climb rate, range to target or any other voodoo ppl try to tell you doesn´t influence it either as I´ve tried to use 400+ mph fighters from short distance to sweep before slow bombers from three times the distance without any chance uncountable times already. What does help, like it already was described, is to have multiple bases, with different ranges to target (lol) and multiple squadrons on all those bases. In fact, the harder you would make it to happen in real life, the easier it becomes in the game. Not that you should compare real life to the game, as I´ve been told.

Trying to use all the same fighters doesn´t help at all, "tested" that three thousand four hundred and five times in my PBEM.

[Rob Brennan UK]

Trying to use all the same fighters doesn´t help at all, "tested" that three thousand four hundred and five times in my PBEM.

Pure Hyperbole. similar types do tend to stick together in my experience , Sweeps from India using hurricane I IIb and IIc usually result in one big sweep happening somewhere along the line with a lot of the same type of a/c involved. Occasionally some other types turn up at the same time too , but given we have no control over what time to launch the raids we cannot influence it other than at least trying to use the same a/c from the same base and if not then another base at the same range. Does altitude matter or even help ? no idea. so i would suggest setting the alt to the height you wish to fight at and just hope for the best.

Distance to target imo does seem to mean that the a/c groups turn up singly much more often , especially when using drop tanks. but that makes sense as a longer time to target means a much larger % deviance between arrival timings.

To the OP - this is ofc all anecdotal from pretty much everyone posting , so if your looking for a right way to do things then I'd suggest just trying it out for yourself and see what you become comfortable with.

just my 2p

[LoBaron]

The more complex a theatre gets the harder it is to keep it all apart.
Theres many ways to accomplish what you need to do, oversaturation is one option, as CT likes to do it.

[DivePac88]

One thing I have found (as the Japanese) is that if you have your bombers set on naval attack, then airfield, ground, or port attack as the secondary target. The sweeps will normally go in the morning phase, and the bombers (with escort) will attack their land targets in the afternoon phase.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

Trying to use all the same fighters doesn´t help at all, "tested" that three thousand four hundred and five times in my PBEM.

Pure Hyperbole. similar types do tend to stick together in my experience , Sweeps from India using hurricane I IIb and IIc usually result in one big sweep happening somewhere along the line with a lot of the same type of a/c involved. Occasionally some other types turn up at the same time too , but given we have no control over what time to launch the raids we cannot influence it other than at least trying to use the same a/c from the same base and if not then another base at the same range. Does altitude matter or even help ? no idea. so i would suggest setting the alt to the height you wish to fight at and just hope for the best.

Distance to target imo does seem to mean that the a/c groups turn up singly much more often , especially when using drop tanks. but that makes sense as a longer time to target means a much larger % deviance between arrival timings.

To the OP - this is ofc all anecdotal from pretty much everyone posting , so if your looking for a right way to do things then I'd suggest just trying it out for yourself and see what you become comfortable with.

just my 2p

yeah, it´s all just hyperboles, as always

This happened last turn in my PBEM. Note what happened and then look what you guys tend to "think". It just makes me smile, even more than I´m shaking my head at the same time when I look at such a turn.

Enemy coming in with a sweep from FIVE bases, with FOUR different types of figthers. Try to do the same with all the same types of fighters from a level 9 airfield at the same altitude with 1 hex range and you will fail at least 9 out of 10 times (if not even more often).

Heck, what you see below is something they would not have achieved in real life, yet the more you try to screw up the engine, the "better" results you get. But hey, keep on thinking whatever you like to, I have yet to see a detailed AAR to prove me wrong, while the detailed ones pretty much support the BS I´m usually shouting out.


Morning Air attack on Kagi , at 85,64

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 240 NM, estimated altitude 40,500 feet.
Estimated time to target is 72 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 61
A6M5 Zero x 12
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 8
Ki-84a Frank x 22



Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 69
F4U-1D Corsair x 91


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 13 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 7 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 2 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 2 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed


try to get a 100+ ac sweep from a single base.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

One thing I have found (as the Japanese) is that if you have your bombers set on naval attack, then airfield, ground, or port attack as the secondary target. The sweeps will normally go in the morning phase, and the bombers (with escort) will attack their land targets in the afternoon phase.

Good tactic DivePac. [8D]

[LoBaron]

CT, what in detail are you trying to prove with that combat report, except that 61 outdated Zeros with a few
more modern airframes are dead meat against more than the double number of Allied high performance fighters? [;)]