Riga Gambit

[heliodorus04]

No Riga Gambit.
Turn 1: 16th Army can get about 8 hexes, right? (or is it 18th on the ocean, forgive me).

Turn 2, your infantry divisions can basically get to Riga and that's about it.

With Riga Gambit.
Turn 1:
Panzer divisions take Riga.
2 Infantry divisions get transported by ship across sea INTO Riga.

Turn 2: Basically full supply to the infantry in Riga, so that they can go 8 or so hexes further than in the above scenario: It means getting a whole corps of infantry 1 turn closer to the panzer spearheads.

The same thing is basically true with Talinn if the German player takes it on T3 and ships in more divisions.

Suddenly you have a lot more pressure on Pskov (from Riga) or the north of Lake Peipus (Talinn) and you can bypass fortifications, and fatigue (because you spent 1 turn moving by sea, generating little to no fatigue).

[Klydon]

What are you taking it with? Infantry barely has enough movement to get over the river on turn 2 and should be headed to Pskov, not trying to get through the swamp up by Riga. If you are trying to attack a city over a river, that could be some tough sledding and your infantry is going to likely be on the wrong side of the river at the end of the turn.

Most of the AAR's I have seen either have it falling turn 1 to the panzers or turn 3 to infantry.

In my earlier post, I was talking about Tallinn in response to someone asking if Tallinn should be garrisoned or not. My comment is the Russians had better consider it possible that the Germans can get to Tallinn on turn 2 and plan accordingly. The Germans can also get to Pskov and potentially take it on turn 2, especially if they have XXXIX from PG3 helping.

[PyleDriver]

Turn two I smack it with a moble division and move forward. But its across the river and next to Riga and theres hardly any losses...

[Tarhunnas]

Well, doing the Riga gambit or not, apparently it's a matter of taste and playing style, as it should be.

[heliodorus04]

Well, heck, I don't know of any tradeoffs (Leningrad very early) that exceed it in Turn 2 Net Present Value, so to speak. I'm probably ignorant: what ARE the alternatives?  I don't read many AARs, I guess, but after reading an early version of Q-balls, Riga 'gambit' was what I thought was standard policy for Axis Turn 1.  And the Romanian panzer drive in AGS as well.

WOuld love to be directed to some AARs that show alternatives, if anyone knows them off hand.

[ComradeP]

I don't think Riga works as a supply source on turn 2 or any other turns until you capture Kuressare. Port ZOC also blocks supplies, and as the damage ports take from bombing missions has been significantly reduced a few patches ago (and slightly increased again in the latest) the odds of doing damage that the Soviets can't fix in their turn is pretty low, which means that the port will be undamaged in the next Axis logistics phase, which in turn means supply will be blocked (like naval movement).

Occupied ports don't have a port ZOC (it's in the manual I believe, but I missed it), so all the discuss we had about the need for Riga to stay damaged as its port ZOC would be 10 were kind of a waste of time. As long as the Soviets hold an undamaged Kuressare, nothing should be able to get to Riga from the Baltic.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I don't think Riga works as a supply source on turn 2 or any other turns until you capture Kuressare. Port ZOC also blocks supplies, and as the damage ports take from bombing missions has been significantly reduced a few patches ago (and slightly increased again in the latest) the odds of doing damage that the Soviets can't fix in their turn is pretty low, which means that the port will be undamaged in the next Axis logistics phase, which in turn means supply will be blocked (like naval movement).

Occupied ports don't have a port ZOC (it's in the manual I believe, but I missed it), so all the discuss we had about the need for Riga to stay damaged as its port ZOC would be 10 were kind of a waste of time. As long as the Soviets hold an undamaged Kuressare, nothing should be able to get to Riga from the Baltic.

Naval transport works for sure. Didn't check the Supply, I did have the impression I had good supply levels up there. I bombed Kuressare to 19% damage turn 1 with no problems IIRC.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Turn two I smack it with a moble division and move forward. But its across the river and next to Riga and theres hardly any losses...

This is what most attacks on turn 1 do to Riga. Most will use 2 German divisions across the river, stacked up and make the attack on the same side of the river as Riga. This is one of the reasons that tactics have changed a bit for AGN when it comes to pocket formation. AGN instead must worry more about advancing as many troops as far forward as possible.

By attacking Riga on turn 2 with the mobile divisions, you probably sacrifice any shot you have of putting heavy pressure on Pskov on turn 2 with the units that make the attack.

[Ketza]

Attach some pioneers to the high CV value Pz division in 4th Pz and cross the river and attack Riga from the east and you can take it with a one division hasty attack with 2-4 MP left over. I have never had this attack fail.

[Klydon]

Yep, good catch on the attachments. I do that as well just to make sure. 

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Attach some pioneers to the high CV value Pz division in 4th Pz and cross the river and attack Riga from the east and you can take it with a one division hasty attack with 2-4 MP left over. I have never had this attack fail.

+1

And in general, the German divisions that you want to use as heavy hitters will all benefit from the maximum directly assigned 3-SUs. Especially in the first 10 turns. This is the German competitive advantage over Soviets. Use it.

[ComradeP]

I bombed Kuressare to 19% damage turn 1 with no problems IIRC.

19% damage? That's a lot, is that with the latest patch? I never come close to that after the city bombing damage was cut, primarily because bomb city missions are flown by so few planes even at 300%. Maybe that has changed too. You need most bombers to bomb air bases on turn 1, though, unless you're willing to trade Soviet aircraft not destroyed for being able to land troops in Riga that are also supplied (which, in my opinion, is an excellent trade).

I just tried it again: at 300%, 40 bombers out of 144 actually flew the missions and after that 22 out of 100 or so, which are really low figures. Oddly, the first attack (with the most participating bombers) did 1% damage and the second one 6%. Maybe the key is to fly multiple missions. It could be that the game someone makes multiple strikes more powerful than a single big strike, even though you're using the same amount of bombers. In that case, I should drop my habit of flying big single missions.

[Mynok]

That would be an interesting test for someone with the time. Interesting indeed.

[Ketza]

For the Port attack needed for Riga operation I use the shift key and select 20 or so bombers for each raid. Sometimes the 20 bombers can do no damage but I have seen them get as high as 8% the first try. I bomb until the port is at 6% and then stop. I have never tried the naval movement under 6% so I am not sure if its overkill.

Also this attack should be the very first thing you do before you start attacking airfields. Its annoying to try and do the port attack but all your planes are used up!

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I bombed Kuressare to 19% damage turn 1 with no problems IIRC.

19% damage? That's a lot, is that with the latest patch?

It was when I started the GC, and that was with 1.04.11 I think.

[ComradeP]

For the Port attack needed for Riga operation I use the shift key and select 20 or so bombers for each raid. Sometimes the 20 bombers can do no damage but I have seen them get as high as 8% the first try. I bomb until the port is at 6% and then stop. I have never tried the naval movement under 6% so I am not sure if its overkill.

1% damage is enough, as even 1% reduces port ZOC by 1 hex. However, if you want your units to be in supply next turn, you'll need to inflict at least 4% damage as the port repairs 3% damage in each friendly logistics phase.

[Ketza]

1% wow that good to know thanks.

[Mynok]

They'll be in supply by land once they get to Riga.

[Ridgeway]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


They'll be in supply by land once they get to Riga.

True, but not from Riga. If you get supply through from Riga, it should = beaucoup MPs.

Has the port repair issue been fixed? I have not been able to figue out how much damage you need to do to make sure a port remains "inoperable" at the start of your next turn.

[ComradeP]

Has the port repair issue been fixed? I have not been able to figue out how much damage you need to do to make sure a port remains "inoperable" at the start of your next turn.

Like I said in my previous post, it should be 4% damaged or more, as the port repairs 3%.