Artillery

[Lieste]

More than a few people have commented that artillery seems omnipresent and decides an entire scenario without much skill required.

I'd already reduced the ammunition effect radius, increased indirect protection from fire in the terrain table, and (roughly) doubled the ammunition weights (a bit more than double for small and medium calibre HV weapons, about double for medium calibre howitzers and larger HV weapons, and about +50% for mortars and larger calibre howitzers).

Still not all felt right - 'my weapons' needed some nurturing to have them available for indirect shoots, yet usefully positioned to hold ground and work as anti-tank screens... while the opposition seemed to always have his units ready to bombard, even while simultaneously being overrun by their target.

Looking at the bombard values for the weapons, It seems that there is a problem with consistency between the different guns - it looks like there is some logic to what has been done, but it distorts the artillery battle hugely.

Low velocity weapons look to have very short minimum ranges (mortars universally 50m) - the medium mortars should be at least 100-150m minimum range (for all fire types) with the light mortars closing the "gap" to the supported unit(s) - (modern) heavy infantry mortars seem to have suggested minimum ranges of 300m or thereabouts.

There are then two classes of weapons - those which seem to have been given the ability to "bombard over open sights" with minimum ranges of 500m or so (for howitzers like the M2A1 and M3) and 'the rest' which have one of 1500m, 2000m, 2500m, 3000m depending on their muzzle velocity (or range which closely correlates for medium calibre weapons).

Nothing too bad so far, except that the 'direct fire' weapons are flat-fire for the most part, and should have poor short range bombardment capabilities and flexibility - although firing over open sights should be more 'urgent' and effective than it typically is right now IMO, it shouldn't be represented by unlimited indirect capabilities.

I found an agreement between published 'minimum range with charge xx' values and ranges at which the angle of fall was 15 degrees for the M119 light howitzer (similar to the M101/M2A1, but modern). Finding either charge weights or zoned (minimum) V0 figures for the weapons isn't easy, but I have some reliable data for some, and despite a few oddities, the correlation is very good between propellant weight fraction and velocity - this means that where either maximum range in lowest zone, velocity spread or propellant weights are known it is possible to get a 'workable' estimate for the minimum range that a shell can be dropped (at steeper than 15 degrees) - usually this will be 15 degrees, but a few weapons have sufficient elevation in the high register (or insufficient minimum in the low register that the minimum range is for nearly vertical fires (interestingly, the range for several howitzers is the same in high and low angle fires using these criteria).

Substituting the new 'minimum' ranges for bombardment isn't going to be trivial - for many guns the minimum distance at which the fall is significant is well over 5000m, the M1897 that initially bothered me @ 500m is increased to 6000m (possibly less with a reduced charge in a secondary shell type, but still 4500m+), and high velocity fixed charge weapons can exceed 9000m.. actually doing this is no problem, and the relative importance of short-ranged high angle weapons over the long ranged flat-fire weapons is emphasised...

The only draw-back is a 'gap' between the 'effective' direct fire range (limited by sights), and the 'effective' indirect fire range (artificially? limited by assumed requirement for general use), which (at least for some weapons which were used for flat-fire work at moderate ranges) shouldn't be there - the weapon could bombard where it could see (and over very minor obstacles) but not search into dead ground. I'm contemplating extending the direct fire (HE/Apers) range to close the gap, but ideally (IMO) it should still be considered bombardment, but only targets with a clear LOS could be fired on (darkness and weather not an issue, but hills/woods/buildings are). This is partly because direct fires are insipid compared to a bombardment within the game at present.

This doesn't actually reduce the Howitzers much (except for the M2A1 and M3, that increase from 500m to 1800m, most of the rest remain between 1000m and 3500m, as do some of the multi-charge guns - what it impacts are the long range guns (including ersatz artillery like the FlaK 36/41 and Pak40/Fk40, and many field-guns). It also doesn't affect some mountain guns or infantry guns - the leIG 18 has multicharge capability and high register fire - roughly equal to the heavy mortar in minimum range. Other mountain guns are fixed charge weapons, only capable of direct fires in low register, being merely light or dismantled into pack-portable pieces.

[OlegHasky]

Lieste, you are talking.. in one..-long...-incredibly-unbroken-sentence-moving-form-topic-to-topic-so-that-no-one-have-the-chance-to-interrupt-it-really-quite-hypnotic
 
Ask for the Arty, as well as all the "guns". I would like to see the same time scale, that is acting on the entrench level - have an impact on aquarcy of established guns positions. As in real world.. crew is adjusting for the aera - up to devastating domination as the time goes by.
Same thing for longer fire exchanges

[Lieste]

That is the shortened, edited version. [X(]

Summary:

Guns should fire in two major modes -

direct/point fire against individual positions/bunkers/buildings/guns/vehicles.
barrage/area fire against a target area.

These are further broken down:
Direct fire, using HE vs individual positions/material items, using direct aiming and limited to 'gunsight ranges'.
Direct fire, using AP vs individual armoured vehicles or heavy bunkers, using direct aiming and limited to 'gunsight ranges'.
Point fire using Mortar or Heavy Gun with individually corrected rounds, can be direct observation or using an observation team - possibly using 'indirect fire' but more deliberate than barrage fires - comparatively rare but used by the Finns for their 21cm Mors 18 weapons for example, or for the reduction of forts by other 'heavy seige artillery'

Area fire, high angle, using HE at the longer ranges (minimum range = max elevation, max range = ~40-50 degrees). Note most guns and many howitzers can't fire into this area unless trails are dug-in - many cannot even reach max range for the tube. Only mode for most mortars.
Area fire, direct, over open sights, using HE in flat fire - using direct aiming and limited to 'gunsight ranges'.
Area fire, direct using HE in flat fire - using indirect fire procedures, but too close to the gun to allow penetration behind significant terrain obstacles.
Area fire, indirect, using HE in flat fire - between the minimum range to fall behind terrain obstacles and the maximum range for the carriage and tube.

By way of example:
A 'field gun' (loosely based on M1897) with a max tube range of 12700m, limited by the carriage elevation to 8650m, and sighted to 1500m. Fixed cartridge with no increments.

Direct fire HE ranges 50-1500m
Direct fire AP ranges 50-1500m
Point fire HE range with self-observed fires only at 1500-6100m, with observed fires or self-observed fires 6100-8650m

Direct Area fire 'aimed' 50-1500m
Direct Area fire adjusted within LOS 50-8650m
Indirect Area fire 6100-8650m, can be fired behind terrain obstacles and can be fired with remote observer or predicted from map. With entrenched or fortified status, the max range could be increased to 12690m.
No high angle fire.

Another example:
Multi-zoned gun-howitzer (based on 25pdr), max tube range 12250m, carriage allows max range, but not high register fire. Sight range to 1500m. Minimum increment gives a reduced 'max' range of 3600m.

Direct fire HE ranges 50-1500m
Direct fire AP ranges 50-1500m
Point fire HE range with self-observed fires only at 1500-1800m, with observed fires or self-observed fires 1800-12250m

Direct Area fire 'aimed' 50-1500m
Direct Area fire adjusted within LOS 50-12250m
Indirect Area fire 1800-12250m, can be fired behind terrain obstacles and can be fired with remote observer or predicted from map.
No high angle fire.

Last example:
Multi-zoned light gun, max tube range 3375m, carriage allows high register fire and direct fires. Sight range to 1300m. Minimum increment gives a reduced 'max' range of 1300m.

Direct fire HE ranges 50-1300m
Direct fire AP ranges 50-1300m
Point fire HE range with observed fires or self-observed fires 680-3375m

Direct Area fire 'aimed' 50-1300m
Direct Area fire adjusted within LOS 50-3375m
Indirect Area fire 680-3375m, can be fired behind terrain obstacles and can be fired with remote observer or predicted from map.
High angle fire from 3375-770m.


Of 'rough rule of thumb' interest, although my example values are derived from a ballistic program, the 15 degree fall 'minimum' range is roughly 50% of the ~45 degree max range of the reduced charge (this latter is a 'flat function' so 40-45 degrees have similar values anyway).

[OlegHasky]

Lieste..

I just have to condsider you as a Shock Troop. An elite force behind the desk.

Its a killer analyse again, touching the secondary issue.
You wrote it all. No suprise, that anybody isnt adding to it. Its all there. Now its for the staff to refer to it.. IF IT WILL OCCURE that is.. Facing a Shock Troop could be chalanging even for the Gods. I wont be suprised if this will remain silent for a loongg time.. sad.

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But Ive got a personal for you..

Are you oriented in detailed co-relation between Air raids and AA defence?
We know its in.. Arjuna has announced this loudly.
I couldnt find any detailes about it..

How it is affecting the raids in % - by the variant of AA equipment, conditions etc.
This could be very interesting.
Any chance you might take a look aaround on this one, and perhaps post it in a new, clear visible topic if you find anything?