Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)

[mmarquo]

How to attack a checkboard? Triple jump [:)]
 
Marquo

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Very impressive but due credit to your opponent who stuck his tanks in silly places.

Well, this is like the luck thing... it may "appear" around the next corner OR you do all your best to "create" it [8D] The thing is if you don't concentrate forces in the path of enemy Panzers the opportunity will N E V E R appear [;)] Do it and you might be surprised...

Yes, Comrade P, "stop the Germans in summer is an illusion". But having the Germans deep in the Soviet Union, with Leningrad and Moscow 150 or 200 miles behind their back IS the biggest illusion of all... [:D] This is NOT about stopping them... This is about buying turns here and there aka harass and slow the lot of them off... This CAN be done.

In fact, this strategy is ONLY a [vital] link of a chain. The next link: have your units in place to heavily defend. This can be seen on one of my screenshots... I cut the panzers off in the center... Then suddenly you see my massed armies in the landbridge (turn 3)... This was possibly BECAUSE I bought time to bring them [;)]

Randall, the truth is I didn't pay attention to this. All I can say is the enemy armored spearheads (aka the MOST dangerous units) were harassed big time... And that is what matters if you want to save the Soviet Union.

[squatter]

I'm not saying your tactics arent the right ones, Tulius, but this strategy was discussed and confirmed while the testers were putting out AARs before the game was even released.

You need to test them against a capable Axis player. Did I see Ketza challenged you in another thread? That would be interesting...

[gids]

this post helped me ,txx mate il try i out,because i made the mistake to retreat and idd he had enough force left ,i basicly think i lost the war as a russian ,but hey lets see how it turns out,on a certain moment in history even the russians thought they lost it

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: squatter

I'm not saying your tactics arent the right ones, Tulius, but this strategy was discussed and confirmed while the testers were putting out AARs before the game was even released.

You need to test them against a capable Axis player. Did I see Ketza challenged you in another thread? That would be interesting...

And again the old tune [:D] if someone does something which works it's BECAUSE his opponent sucks... [8|]

Ketza? I will tell you something... In his game vs Larry Fulkerson (Soviet), his opponent could have done EXACTLY this in the north... he didn't... he hided behind Pskov [:D] F A C T

[TulliusDetritus]

I downloaded the pic from Larry's AAR and edited it, to make sure Larry had understood what he was supposed to do... YES, this is Ketza as the Germans... 2 + 2, please? [;)]

[Encircled]

Checkerboarding is frustrating as hell to play as the Russians, but it will work.

I just can't see how you won't run out of units doing what you are doing

[Encircled]

Are you sure that those Russian units have the MP's to do that?

I've been frankly amazed at just how rubbish Soviet troops are moving into what is basically unoccupied terrority.

I'm constantly looking for the "commissar enforces move" button!

[TulliusDetritus]

You can't? It's very simple [8D] If you isolate the Panzer units you are in fact neutralizing the ONLY units that should be really creating a big mess... No panzers = no danger AT ALL. The infantry alone won't make mega pockets which kill 20 or more divisions... With such movements you are in fact STOPPING the Panzers... for ONE turn... And that's gold. Never forget the Germans only have 17 turns. And it's game over.

[Encircled]

Yes, if the German player leaves his panzers and motorised units like that.

But they won't (at least they won't after thats happened to them once!)

And don't forget HQ build up makes a massive difference now to German Panzer tactics in '41

[Emx77]

Here is what I do as aggressive Axis player in order to prevent isolation of the Panzer spearheads (this advice I gave in another thread. Maybe somene can find it usefull as countermeasure for Tullius tatctic):


First, don't go too forward with your armor spearheads. Usually, I use them in pincer movement to finish encirclement. After that, they are positioned in forward center with infantry covering flanks. If opponent try to clutter them up with 1=1s, it take risk of concentrating units on one spot, which could help me to do next encirclement even more easy on following turn(s). My opponent hadn't use this tactic probably because after my breakthroughs he had more important things in mind (such as forming new defensive line). Also, often pincer movement hadn't left him a lot of ready units to sacrifice.

Second, German player shouldn't left huge gaps among mobile units. I try to keep them as close as possible with preferably 1 hex among them. Or even without any gaps if opponent has large reserve force to counterattack.

Third, after completing encirclement with mobile units in forward center, I usally left them there for turn or two in order to rest them and faster replenish of fuel and supplies. Regarding this I wouldn't care much if he try to clutter them with 1=1s. My infantry is close anyway so if he like to risk encirclement so let it be.


Example - Usual situation after pincer maneuver:

[Ketza]

That particular turn it was more prudent to go "all out" as Pskov was weak and ripe for a quick capture. All of the Panzers were flown in fuel that turn and most of them were down the falling turn for HQ buildup anyway.

Your tactics are viable and do buy time. I use them in my Soviet games as well. I typically guard against these moves unless an opportunity arises where the "prize" is worth the risk of potentially getting some units cutoff short term.

[TulliusDetritus]

Ketza, this is not "my" tactic. I haven't invented the "concentration of forces" axiom. It is quite clear --from what people are saying-- that some Soviet players do use this. Er, because we have realized that not facing the Panzers means one thing and only one: they will be totally free to maneuver AND that's WHEN they are really dangerous and can therefore bag 15... 20... 30... 40 enemy divisions...

A paradox again: the closest you are to Panzers the safest your forces (in general) will be... Like the gazelles running around the lion itself. Yes, this is a well known tactic we can see many times in the nature.

[TulliusDetritus]

Emir, I'm sorry but I need to see the map with the controlled hexes thing ON, please. It's hard to see what's going on there... Corridors, you know...

[TulliusDetritus]

And anyway, Emir, these maneuvers I am talking about have to be done especially on the first turns of the game [;)] This has to be turn 7, 8, 9 or maybe 10. On the first turns the infantry is way behind... the Panzers are alone. That's why an agressive push should be cut off. But of course you need to bring and concentrate forces... It's not just my AAR. I have seen it in other AARs [:)]

But still, if you concentrate forces around panzers (NOT necessarily next to them) the opportunity might appear the same: turn 10, 20 20 or 60...

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Emir, I'm sorry but I need to see the map with the controlled hexes thing ON, please. It's hard to see what's going on there... Corridors, you know...

Unfortuantely it was server game (turn 10) so I can't turn on what you are asking for. But that doesn't matter in picture above. All what Soviet could try there was to cut off most exposed Pz Div which wouldn't be a good idea.

Regarding your comment about first turn. If you place your units like this:





Experienced German player should never try to go with Pz Divisions in wide frontal assault like this:

[Ketza]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Ketza, this is not "my" tactic. I haven't invented the "concentration of forces" axiom. It is quite clear --from what people are saying-- that some Soviet players do use this. Er, because we have realized that not facing the Panzers means one thing and only one: they will be totally free to maneuver AND that's WHEN they are really dangerous and can therefore bag 15... 20... 30... 40 enemy divisions...

A paradox again: the closest you are to Panzers the safest your forces (in general) will be... Like the gazelles running around the lion itself. Yes, this is a well known tactic we can see many times in the nature.

Well you did title the post "My tips". I was just sticking with the premise of your topic. [8D]

[TulliusDetritus]

Emir, in your example, the Panzers are still very close to the German lines, it's a "timid" advance: not sure it's worth trying to cut them off. And of course they are not making a deep penetration. But again, the deepest the penetration = cutting them off will be much easier [:)]

I see, Ketza, I just wanted to make clear that I haven't invented the wheel or anything for that matter [:)] All these things should be obvious. And still... the Soviets should keep Leningrad and Moscow or at least fight really hard to keep them. There will always be exceptions to the rule. But I don't see that on the AARs [X(]

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Emir, in your example, the Panzers are still very close to the German lines, it's a "timid" advance: not sure it's worth trying to cut them off. And of course they are not making a deep penetration. But again, the deepest the penetration = cutting them off will be much easier [:)]

Yes, I agree. It is a matter of judgment how far panzers should go alone. In my example you may see that I had couple of mobile units with enough MP's to advance more to east. Instead, I kept them close to infantry as it would be too risky for them to wander around on their own.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Experienced German player should never try to go with Pz Divisions in wide frontal assault like this:

Emir, these are the first turns of Barbarossa. Are you telling me that the Germans will stop their panzers or avoid Pskov? [;)] How I drawed the circles can be confusing. Still, the Germans MUST push (they only have 17 turns). Or are they going to wait for infantry (2 turns minimum)? Ok, this means the German advance will never be somewhere deep in the Soviet Union with Leningrad er... 200 miles behind their back... NOT enough time. Tick-tock tick-tock...