1.04.10 Fulkerson vs Pelton

[Klydon]

Just looking at that again, it appears he has the zones trying to help the Rumanians. Attack, attack, attack! Will hurt his armaments big time. Those zones will surrender and give up the goodies. 

[Arstavidios]

the soviets lost some factories but not that many men.
IMO manpower is the critical factor.

axis losses are moderately heavy so they should reach 1942 in relatively good shape.
loss of vehicle factories and armament will reduce the soviet offensive capacities in the long run though. Taking back Moscow will help with manpower.

[Ketza]

Watching what is going on in this AAR I am considering an experimental strategy as Soviets for my next Soviet game.

A major withdrawal with delaying actions only to help save factories and preserve as much of the Soviet army as possible. In the winter counterattack and build up morale and quality of the Soviet army. I wonder how it would turn out.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: Ketza
Watching what is going on in this AAR I am considering an experimental strategy as Soviets for my next Soviet game.

A major withdrawal with delaying actions only to help save factories and preserve as much of the Soviet army as possible. In the winter counterattack and build up morale and quality of the Soviet army. I wonder how it would turn out.

That's what I thought I was doing all along. Maybe you and I would get similar results?

Here's the T35 front lines before any Soviet movement:

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the ground losses so far:

[larryfulkerson]

And the OOB:

[larryfulkerson]

And the state of Soviet production in T35:

[Ketza]

Well not many Soviets keep playing after losing as much industry and troops as you have. Its amazing to see the resilience of the Soviet war machine and as an mainly Axis player I have to ask what the heck do you have to do in order to render a deliver out blow to the Soviets in 1941. it actually appears that its pretty much impossible.

Against a well seasoned player who saves most of his industry and keeps their losses low its pretty evident the Soviet machine will be rolling heavy in late 42.

You may have issues in the 1942 campaign season having lost a lot of your industrial base but we wont know that until its played of course.

[Klydon]

I am starting to believe the 1941 campaign for the Axis is to knock out as much industry as possible and destroy as many Russians as possible in order to lessen the effectiveness of the Russian army during the winter counter attack. Victory (in terms of what most Germans think of anyway, not by hanging on into 1945) will likely be gained by destruction of Russian units after the Russians don't get them back for free. 

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I am starting to believe the 1941 campaign for the Axis is to knock out as much industry as possible and destroy as many Russians as possible in order to lessen the effectiveness of the Russian army during the winter counter attack. Victory (in terms of what most Germans think of anyway, not by hanging on into 1945) will likely be gained by destruction of Russian units after the Russians don't get them back for free. 

The problem with that though is the Soviets can build divisions for a cost of 10 ap's after Nov 41. So any that you do manage to envelop after that time are pretty easily replaced if the Soviet player wants to.

Factory strategy sounds good too, but if you look at this game as an example where Larry has lost so much, he is still in very good shape, both from an OOB and a unit perspective.

Pelton did well getting as far as he did so quick, he should have pushed further, but as it stands he now has to hold on and delay the trip back to Germany as long as possible. He will get a few good blows in the summer of 42 and possibly 43, but in the end it is how much can he hang onto after his blitzkrieg.

[Klydon]

I hear you on being able to build divisions, but for every 2 divisions the Axis makes him build, that is one corps that didn't get assembled. Hit a good sized pocket of say 20 divisions and that will take a bit to replace in terms of points. 

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I hear you on being able to build divisions, but for every 2 divisions the Axis makes him build, that is one corps that didn't get assembled. Hit a good sized pocket of say 20 divisions and that will take a bit to replace in terms of points. 

That's true if you can do it. Come 42 it gets much tougher to do that unless you start the 42 camapign.

[squatter]

Pelton did well getting as far as he did so quick, he should have pushed further, but as it stands he now has to hold on and delay the trip back to Germany as long as possible. He will get a few good blows in the summer of 42 and possibly 43, but in the end it is how much can he hang onto after his blitzkrieg.

No offence to the Soviet player, Mr Fulkerson, but in my book what we've seen in this AAR should be construed as a crushing Soviet defeat. Game over. It's impossible to imagine better results for Axis in 41.

Instead, "as it stands he now has to hold on and delay the trip back to Germany as long as possible". Which means Pelton now has to play through 100s of hours of turns, probably taking around a six months to a year to do so, to confirm the victory he will inevitably win.

I'm now absolutely of the mind that house rules are necessary, along the lines of if the Axis hold 2 of Lenningrad/Moscow/Donbas by the end of blizzard 41, then it's game over.

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: squatter

Pelton did well getting as far as he did so quick, he should have pushed further, but as it stands he now has to hold on and delay the trip back to Germany as long as possible. He will get a few good blows in the summer of 42 and possibly 43, but in the end it is how much can he hang onto after his blitzkrieg.

No offence to the Soviet player, Mr Fulkerson, but in my book what we've seen in this AAR should be construed as a crushing Soviet defeat. Game over. It's impossible to imagine better results for Axis in 41.

Instead, "as it stands he now has to hold on and delay the trip back to Germany as long as possible". Which means Pelton now has to play through 100s of hours of turns, probably taking around a six months to a year to do so, to confirm the victory he will inevitably win.

I'm now absolutely of the mind that house rules are necessary, along the lines of if the Axis hold 2 of Lenningrad/Moscow/Donbas by the end of blizzard 41, then it's game over.

Crushing defeat? Hardly the case here. I look at the size of the Soviet army and the remaining amount of production and the Soviets are far from being crushed. Losing Moscow and Leningrad does not mean the war is over.

[squatter]

"Crushing defeat? Hardly the case here. I look at the size of the Soviet army and the remaining amount of production and the Soviets are far from being crushed. Losing Moscow and Leningrad does not mean the war is over."

Well, yes, you're right, but that's kind of what I mean: I don't think the Axis player can be expected to do any better than Pelton in this game, it's simply not possible. Yet despite that, the game is designed in such a way that the Russian army bounces back in the space of a couple of months. Which means there is no feasible way for the Axis to win this game short of 1945. IMO, that shouldnt be so. Of course this goes back to the old debate of 'what would have happened if x,y or z' happened which no-one can answer. But as far as the GAME is concerned, a victory on the scale of Pelton's should trigger an auto-victory in my book. Otherwise, WitE is a game that runs to 1945 no matter how well the German plays.

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: squatter

"Crushing defeat? Hardly the case here. I look at the size of the Soviet army and the remaining amount of production and the Soviets are far from being crushed. Losing Moscow and Leningrad does not mean the war is over."

Well, yes, you're right, but that's kind of what I mean: I don't think the Axis player can be expected to do any better than Pelton in this game, it's simply not possible. Yet despite that, the game is designed in such a way that the Russian army bounces back in the space of a couple of months. Which means there is no feasible way for the Axis to win this game short of 1945. IMO, that shouldnt be so. Of course this goes back to the old debate of 'what would have happened if x,y or z' happened which no-one can answer. But as far as the GAME is concerned, a victory on the scale of Pelton's should trigger an auto-victory in my book. Otherwise, WitE is a game that runs to 1945 no matter how well the German plays.

I've seen much better games played than this one where the German has gone beyond Moscow to Gorki and taken Rostov and Vorenezh. What I see in this game is pretty much what many players are achieving. Remember the magic number is 290. At anytime the German player controls that many vp's, game is over. I would say he is sitting around 240 to 250 at this point, maybe a little more.

This game is not meant to be an easy victory for either side. If you want a decisive victory as the Germans, you will need to push out to Gorki down to Stalingrad and into the Caucasus capturing all the cities in between. That would then be considered a decisive victory.

You can always play a shorter scenario where decisive victories can be achieved in rather a short time. Don't expect a campaign game to do so.

[Encircled]

 Don't want to highjack the AAR, but in my game v Kamil, I've suffered heavy industrial losses due to his drives in the south and centre. I'm certainly worried that I might not be able to produce enough over the winter of '41 to stop him threatening my remaining industrial centres in '42.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: squatter
Well, yes, you're right, but that's kind of what I mean: I don't think the Axis player can be expected to do any better than Pelton in this game, it's simply not possible. Yet despite that, the game is designed in such a way that the Russian army bounces back in the space of a couple of months. Which means there is no feasible way for the Axis to win this game short of 1945...But as far as the GAME is concerned, a victory on the scale of Pelton's should trigger an auto-victory in my book. Otherwise, WitE is a game that runs to 1945 no matter how well the German plays.

I strongly disagree that this kind of German success in 1941 should trigger an auto-victory. In fact, this kind of success in 1941 sets up the German very well for a 1942 victory, but they should have to earn it. Look at PDH's last AAR for an example.

I agree that the Germans could hardly be expected to do better, but so what? This is a historical wargame after all and should reflect reality. I do think it might be appropriate for this level of German success to generate at least the possibility of additional Sov penalties (drop in morale, perhaps *possibility* of Sov collapse) but not an auto victory.

This has been discussed in other threads, but I don't think the Sovs should be indifferent to the loss of Lgrad, Moscow, and the Donbass (especially if industry has been evacced), and that to keep things interesting there should be some chance of a Sov collapse if this happens.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I strongly disagree that this kind of German success in 1941 should trigger an auto-victory. In fact, this kind of success in 1941 sets up the German very well for a 1942 victory, but they should have to earn it. Look at PDH's last AAR for an example.

I agree that the Germans could hardly be expected to do better, but so what? This is a historical wargame after all and should reflect reality. I do think it might be appropriate for this level of German success to generate at least the possibility of additional Sov penalties (drop in morale, perhaps *possibility* of Sov collapse) but not an auto victory.

This has been discussed in other threads, but I don't think the Sovs should be indifferent to the loss of Lgrad, Moscow, and the Donbass (especially if industry has been evacced), and that to keep things interesting there should be some chance of a Sov collapse if this happens.

+1

[larryfulkerson]

I'm pushing the Finns east of Lake Ladoga to the north and I'm thinking maybe they will back up further into
Finland if I push enough. Maybe I can eliminate the Finns from the game somehow or other.

Here's the T37 front lines before any Soviet movement: