GreyJoy, your fighting spirit is what counts most, and if we're telling you that we have much respect for you, just ask PzB how many Allied opponents (and we're talking honorable and very competent opponents!) he exhausted in his single main game at WitP...! Even Andy right now is not for a cakewalk, and I guess you're somewhat alike: there's one reason you keep on fighting even with a bloody nose, it's that you want some payback, and that's good [:)]
Btw, for the Marshalls, do it quick before everything comes back from India. But I guess you may very well simply and very timely arrive at the same time as his first wave of reinforcements in the region, which will be good for you, and bad for him. Your opponent is slowly sinking into a false feeling of victory disease and routine, and although it was costly for you, events like the B-17 rampage show it's one of your best allies right now.
The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
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Bullwinkle58
- Posts: 11297
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm
RE: The fall of Scoodra
ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
While here Rader has clearly shown he wants the whole of China and the whole of India and he has committed everything he had.
Under this pov i think digging in at Bombay was a mistake.
I think it's at least concievable that Rader has decided he wants to see if he can eliminate every single vestige of Allied power on the Asian landmass: India, China, and USSR, before the auto-vic date in January.
CR is right. Giving up Bombay with its large LI-based supply generation and x4 bonus, was unwise. Karachi only matters if you have some semblance of sea power in the region. You don't. The massive set of surface assets you have detailed to the Marshalls sideshow is enough for 4 great surface action groups, and 7-8 modest ones. You are wasting it. The war will be decided in the IO and that's where your navies ought to be. If you're playing some "historical" mindset where only the RN and Dutch can operate in the IO, well, your opponent is not playing as if bound by history. Rader already has the Aden channel locked down; LOD reenforcements won't get to Karachi. With Bombay, he has a massive refuel, rearm and repair base necessary to permanently interdict the entire west coast of India.
You continue to focus on air power. At this point it is a sideshow. Supply, naval power, and more supply should be your focus.
Again, I ask, WHY are you not using Ceylon, for anything? It is a massive asset in Rader's (now) backyard where you could be harrassing him to no end, patrolling out as far as DG and the CT exit, and possibly stopping some of the transports about to dump 3+ new divisions from Socotra NORTH of Bombay, either right on Karachi, or more likely on Surat, for a supply interdiction run to the NE, possibly right at your "new" love, Hydebarad (sp?).
Even if you execute the Marshalls perfectly, what is there in VPs in the best case? Why would Rader spend a second worrying about it? The war is in Asia, not the Marshalls. You have most of your effective response forces off on a rabbit chase. You think he'll panic and shift the IJN to stopping you setting up on Wotje? Really? His planning horizon is six months. He doesn't care. But those 30+ small to heavy combatants you have detailed to the Marshalls could shift the balance in the IO if they were there, with many/most at Ceylon. Your air effort should be going to providing an umbrella over that vital base, and you should be harrassing Rader at every opportunity on the water. His land-based supply lines are long (about to get much shorter when he takes Bomaby, but still . . .) You're giving him a pass, not bagging easy VPs he has at sea. Attacking the Marshalls may make you feel as if you're "doing something", but right now, since you've punted on Bombay, it's the wrong something. If you'd have fortified Bombay and bought time, maybe a more moderate Marshalls campaign would make some sense, but now, having pinned your hopes on H. and K., I don't think so.
Anyway, it's your game. I'll watch some more now.
[/quote]
The Moose
RE: The fall of Scoodra
Nemo, Fishbed and Bullwinkle,
again i thank you really much for being so analitic and for spending time writing here. I really do appreaciate.
Specifically speaking it's clear that you all consider my overall strategy dumb to say the least. I hoped the new analysis and elements i've given to you had changed a bit your vision upon this match...they did not.
As soon as i get back from office i'll have some time to reply to you in deep.
In the meanwhile thanks a lot again
gj
again i thank you really much for being so analitic and for spending time writing here. I really do appreaciate.
Specifically speaking it's clear that you all consider my overall strategy dumb to say the least. I hoped the new analysis and elements i've given to you had changed a bit your vision upon this match...they did not.
As soon as i get back from office i'll have some time to reply to you in deep.
In the meanwhile thanks a lot again
gj
RE: The fall of Scoodra
Dumb is a bad word to use. My view is certainly simply that AE is like a very complicated long-term chess game, a match of minds in a game with more than 64 squares and 6 types of units.
You are just someone new to chess who has a lot of spirit and is doing some things wrong but also making lots of dangerous assumptions which lead you to erroneous planning. None of us were Masters at chess the first time we played it. AE is, in some ways, even more complicated. You get better by playing but also by listening to others... Of course you don't have to do everything they say but whenever I'm learning something new I take the approach that whenever I have a cool new idea I should bring it to someone very experienced and have then tell me why my brilliant idea isn't [:D]. That's how we learn.
The cultural premium put on personal experiential learning bears moderation.
You are just someone new to chess who has a lot of spirit and is doing some things wrong but also making lots of dangerous assumptions which lead you to erroneous planning. None of us were Masters at chess the first time we played it. AE is, in some ways, even more complicated. You get better by playing but also by listening to others... Of course you don't have to do everything they say but whenever I'm learning something new I take the approach that whenever I have a cool new idea I should bring it to someone very experienced and have then tell me why my brilliant idea isn't [:D]. That's how we learn.
The cultural premium put on personal experiential learning bears moderation.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: The fall of Scoodra
Greyjoy,
First of all, I think that your fighting spirit is in fact to be applauded.
Next, three caveats:
1) I have to be a bit careful, English is not my native language, so my use/interpretation of words may not be 100% adequate.
2) Also, I have to say that recent developments/headings pulled me into this AAR, and I did not find the time to read all of it. So maybe that's part of my problem.
3) I do not claim I am an expert or a good strategist. In fact, I make lots of mistakes. Take my statements a) as a request for more information so that I understand your strategic approach better and b) as an opinion how I think this may be done expressed full of hopes to meet discussion and thus refine my view on things.
That being said, my problem is that I do not yet recognize an overall strategy (maybe because of my own shortcominds) from your explanations . In view of 1), maybe I should specify how I use the word "strategy": According to Merriam-Webster's online dictionary, a strategy is
"the science or art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war".
I like that definition a lot, because I believe it expresses well how to design a strategy. Thus first of all, we need to know the adopted policy for your group of nations.
If your policy is personal experimental learning of the AE ground combat model, then you may be running an excellent strategy. If it is winning by points, the optimized strategic approach may be different from the solution if your national policy requires invading Japan at the earliest possible point of time or the solution if it requires keeping Australia at all cost or... ... ...
Your operations should be subordinate to your strategic approach. You run an operation to implement part of said approach, otherwise it is a waste of assets. E.g., assuming that you have an overall strategy which you follow, you should be able to define in what your planned Marshalls operation will contribute to the realization of your strategy. Note the use of "will" rather than "may if my opponent cooperates".
As always, just my 2cts.
Hartwig
First of all, I think that your fighting spirit is in fact to be applauded.
Next, three caveats:
1) I have to be a bit careful, English is not my native language, so my use/interpretation of words may not be 100% adequate.
2) Also, I have to say that recent developments/headings pulled me into this AAR, and I did not find the time to read all of it. So maybe that's part of my problem.
3) I do not claim I am an expert or a good strategist. In fact, I make lots of mistakes. Take my statements a) as a request for more information so that I understand your strategic approach better and b) as an opinion how I think this may be done expressed full of hopes to meet discussion and thus refine my view on things.
That being said, my problem is that I do not yet recognize an overall strategy (maybe because of my own shortcominds) from your explanations . In view of 1), maybe I should specify how I use the word "strategy": According to Merriam-Webster's online dictionary, a strategy is
"the science or art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war".
I like that definition a lot, because I believe it expresses well how to design a strategy. Thus first of all, we need to know the adopted policy for your group of nations.
If your policy is personal experimental learning of the AE ground combat model, then you may be running an excellent strategy. If it is winning by points, the optimized strategic approach may be different from the solution if your national policy requires invading Japan at the earliest possible point of time or the solution if it requires keeping Australia at all cost or... ... ...
Your operations should be subordinate to your strategic approach. You run an operation to implement part of said approach, otherwise it is a waste of assets. E.g., assuming that you have an overall strategy which you follow, you should be able to define in what your planned Marshalls operation will contribute to the realization of your strategy. Note the use of "will" rather than "may if my opponent cooperates".
As always, just my 2cts.
Hartwig
ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Nemo, Fishbed and Bullwinkle,
again i thank you really much for being so analitic and for spending time writing here. I really do appreaciate.
Specifically speaking it's clear that you all consider my overall strategy dumb to say the least. I hoped the new analysis and elements i've given to you had changed a bit your vision upon this match...they did not.
As soon as i get back from office i'll have some time to reply to you in deep.
In the meanwhile thanks a lot again
gj
RE: The fall of Scoodra
Greyjoy,
sorry, can't resist the Hijack.
Nemo,
Aye. It is much better to watch someone else doing the personal experimental learning and copy what works well / avoid what leads to disaster.
However, if you apply that approach make sure you know all the parameters of what you are watching, or you may find that Palembang gambits don't always work.
Just my 2cts.
Hartwig
sorry, can't resist the Hijack.
Nemo,
ORIGINAL: Nemo121
The cultural premium put on personal experiential learning bears moderation.
Aye. It is much better to watch someone else doing the personal experimental learning and copy what works well / avoid what leads to disaster.
However, if you apply that approach make sure you know all the parameters of what you are watching, or you may find that Palembang gambits don't always work.
Just my 2cts.
Hartwig
RE: The fall of Scoodra
Hartwig,
Context is everything [8D]. What you see in an AAR is a mere reflection seen through a mist of the actual situation in-game... Some AAR writers are better than giving the strategic context. Mostly though I think the reflection glimsped in passing through a mist metaphor holds true.
Context is everything [8D]. What you see in an AAR is a mere reflection seen through a mist of the actual situation in-game... Some AAR writers are better than giving the strategic context. Mostly though I think the reflection glimsped in passing through a mist metaphor holds true.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: The fall of Scoodra
Nemo,
I actually prefer a slight modification of your statement as illustrated in blue bold face:
Just my 2cts.
Hartwig
I actually prefer a slight modification of your statement as illustrated in blue bold face:
Context is everything [8D]. What you see in an AAR is a mere perception of a reflection seen through a mist of the actual situation in-game...
Just my 2cts.
Hartwig
RE: The fall of Scoodra
ORIGINAL: Nemo121
Hmm, 600 AV of troops lost in Bombay for a 2 or 3 day delay. Seems like a terrible exchange rate to me.
In addition despite the way his armoured forces used good terrain to outmanoeuvre you before you are setting up a widely dispersed defensive line which is NOT contiguous, is NOT set up for a defence in depth to avoid penetration and exploiting into your strategic depth and in which you are simply begging to be pocketed and destroyed piecemeal just like you have been before.
Attitude is all well and good but your dispositions are suicidal.
It is good to play and learn from your own mistakes but is it necessary to learn every lesson personally the hard way?
Lastly, Rader is a reasonably good player. He isn't going to be bothered by those losses from your B-17s because in the greater scheme of things:
a) your B-17 losses represent about 10 days worth of replacements. He can replace his losses in less time than that. So, attritionally the losses you inflicted still work in his favour.
b) you won't have significant reserves of the B-17s, he will have reserves for each of those airframe types. Thus in 1 week his defence will be as strong, your attack will be weaker. Again, the exchange rate favours him.
c) Even if your B-17s were tearing him up it is a tiny morale-raising sideshow which does nothing about the situation which is going to develop in Karachi.
UNless there's a significant change in strategic dispositions your opponent is on the money to become the first player to take all of India and CHina. After that he should logically go for Australia and, if you're willing to play on, then mobilise everything to invade CONUSA and be the first player to capture the entire AE map. That is what I would be thinking of were I in his position.
So, it is great to see fighting spirit but I think you haven't yet come to terms with the land warfare model in AE and are going to find yourself surprised, yet again, despite advice to the contrary in this AAR, when his schwerpunkt dislocates your outpost line ( I won't call it an MLR since it isn't contiguous and it won't offer much resistance ).
Previously you had good options on the table - although you didn't know it. Now your only possibility for continuing to hold Australia into 1943 ( which IS what you are now fighting for, even though you don't realise it ) is to turtle into Karachi.
With all of the above said, you can still easily enough win the game so don't despair.... what you do over the next week will determine whether you go on to win or whether you go on to lose the map ( which is, IMO, a real possibility if your opponent is a man of ambition ).
Hi Nemo,
ok, i understand that thing about the defence in depth, but i have not set it up yet. I've just shown which are the bases i want as my cardinal bases. My units, massed in corps, will move and cover the flanks of those bases, possibly using the interal lines advantage.
However the point is that i really cannot see how am i supposed to fight for the survivability of India just turtling in Karachi. If he gets easily to H. he can close easily the Aden Channell not even bothering to use his Combined Fleet. While, as long as i keep H in my hands i'll have two strong air bases cooperating with each other threatening both his naval assets and his advancing troops.
Ok, let's say i'll turtle in Karachi now. I mass 5.000 AVs there with 400.000 supplies and 7 forts.
In let's say 2 weeks he can be at the very gates of Karachi using the railroads i left undefended. He simply needs to put 250 aviation support at Hydebarad S and start the bombing process with his IJAAF LBAs, while his IJN will be set to naval attacks with lots of zeros. With the KB and the combined fleet around i really don't see how am i supposed to lift this siege or simply keep the city alive.
And believe me...i'm not arguing anything...i really do not see the strategic result of this decision.
My vision is: if i get turtled in Karachi there's no way i'm going to fight back in India and CR has done in his game. I need to stop him before Karachi and reach a statlemate. If i'm not able to stop him before the gates of Karachi, India is lost no matter what.
Now to reply to some other observations, made by Nemo, Bull and others, my overall strategy is to be able to stop his advance in India and turn the tables of this overcommitment by invading the Marshalls, thus putting a foothold into his perimeter. If i manage to get a strong positions there, in the next 6 months i will probably be able to neutralize his southern perimeter (from Truk southwards).
Ok, i understand the game is being playing in the I.O., but if the KB and the whole combined fleet is there my view is that there's no point in sending my ships to a already written suicide mission. Better to exploit the absence of all those assets somehwere else.
The KB in India isn't really doing anything that important (if she's still in India....) so the most important asset japan has at the moment is stationed there just to keep at bay the RN fleet...i say that, provided i'm able to stop him, this is a strategical victory as far as i can move on the offensive in SOPAC.
Colombo cannot be used because it's already cut off (India is cut in two) and there's no way to reach it for my bombers. Above all, i've been tryin to save my air force and build it into a decent fighting force, in order to fight at decent terms for the final battles. If i had sent some bombers to Colombo, probably i could have sink some minor vessels...but he would have come and smash me easily (because i have had to defend both Colombo and the northern India so my air forces would have been too stretched) with no real gain.
Think Nemo just stated in CR actual game that a wise Allied player can stand a chance against Japanese air assets if he has the patience to wait till is strong enough and he can concentrate...
...now i gotta go...more comments will be posted later...
Thanks in the meanwhile for the attention given to me
RE: The fall of Scoodra
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
While here Rader has clearly shown he wants the whole of China and the whole of India and he has committed everything he had.
Under this pov i think digging in at Bombay was a mistake.
I think it's at least concievable that Rader has decided he wants to see if he can eliminate every single vestige of Allied power on the Asian landmass: India, China, and USSR, before the auto-vic date in January.
CR is right. Giving up Bombay with its large LI-based supply generation and x4 bonus, was unwise. Karachi only matters if you have some semblance of sea power in the region. You don't. The massive set of surface assets you have detailed to the Marshalls sideshow is enough for 4 great surface action groups, and 7-8 modest ones. You are wasting it. The war will be decided in the IO and that's where your navies ought to be. If you're playing some "historical" mindset where only the RN and Dutch can operate in the IO, well, your opponent is not playing as if bound by history. Rader already has the Aden channel locked down; LOD reenforcements won't get to Karachi. With Bombay, he has a massive refuel, rearm and repair base necessary to permanently interdict the entire west coast of India.
You continue to focus on air power. At this point it is a sideshow. Supply, naval power, and more supply should be your focus.
Again, I ask, WHY are you not using Ceylon, for anything? It is a massive asset in Rader's (now) backyard where you could be harrassing him to no end, patrolling out as far as DG and the CT exit, and possibly stopping some of the transports about to dump 3+ new divisions from Socotra NORTH of Bombay, either right on Karachi, or more likely on Surat, for a supply interdiction run to the NE, possibly right at your "new" love, Hydebarad (sp?).
Even if you execute the Marshalls perfectly, what is there in VPs in the best case? Why would Rader spend a second worrying about it? The war is in Asia, not the Marshalls. You have most of your effective response forces off on a rabbit chase. You think he'll panic and shift the IJN to stopping you setting up on Wotje? Really? His planning horizon is six months. He doesn't care. But those 30+ small to heavy combatants you have detailed to the Marshalls could shift the balance in the IO if they were there, with many/most at Ceylon. Your air effort should be going to providing an umbrella over that vital base, and you should be harrassing Rader at every opportunity on the water. His land-based supply lines are long (about to get much shorter when he takes Bomaby, but still . . .) You're giving him a pass, not bagging easy VPs he has at sea. Attacking the Marshalls may make you feel as if you're "doing something", but right now, since you've punted on Bombay, it's the wrong something. If you'd have fortified Bombay and bought time, maybe a more moderate Marshalls campaign would make some sense, but now, having pinned your hopes on H. and K., I don't think so.
Anyway, it's your game. I'll watch some more now.
[/quote]
Hi Bullwinkle.
The Marshalls adventure will have a sense, strategically speaking, only if i manage to stop Japan in India before Karachi gets sieged. if not, you're right...doesn't have any impact on the war.
But if Japan gets a bloody stop in India...well...maybe the overcommittment may start to pay some reverse dividends to Rader.
I had to decide what to do with my CVs. In march i had to decide if i wanted to try and send them to India or to keep them in Pacific, upgrade them, wait for the avengers and then attack where he was weak... i chose for the latter...it's too late now to get back. And, if i remember correctly, many people thought i had to counterattack somewhere where the KB was not present...it sounded right to me as an advice and i followed it.
Probably i'm a dreamer and Japan cannot be stopped in the way i want to in India....but i think now it's really too late to do something different. better to stick with the plan and see if i'll lead the western powers to the oblivion or to an ultimate glorious victory [:D]
Oh, to be clear: i'm not playing just for learning. yes, i want to learn and i've learnt a LOT during these first 5 months of war...but i'd like, ultimately, to win...or at least i want to try my best to win...then, if i don't, the only important thing is that i've tried my best to
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SqzMyLemon
- Posts: 4239
- Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:18 pm
- Location: Alberta, Canada
RE: The fall of Scoodra
Hi Greyjoy,
I know you are being bombarded by so many suggestions that it can seem overwhelming at times, heck the game is overwhelming for many of us, myself included.
I think the jist of what people are trying to say is that the war won't be won/lost in the Marshall's. To Rader the Central Pacific is strategically unimportant considering his deployments. The suggestion to split between Bombay and Karachi was to buy you time for a meaningful operation elsewhere. The IO and India will be the deciding battleground, but that doesn't mean you can't hurt your opponent in a meaningfull way, if what's left of India is secure. With two strongpoints tying up Japanese forces you could have begun to reinforce other theatres or mass a counter force in India to strike back and get Rader's attention. Hitting the Japanese in the Marshall's will do absolutely nothing to slow your opponent down. VP and resources wise they are a backwater. If you take a few Islands in the Marshall's...then what? Where will you then go? How will you get them there? What if the Japanese don't show? How have you hurt him? If KB does makes an appearance (highly doubtful) and wipes your fleet out thus stranding those forces to whither and die because you can no longer support/supply them. What then?
Bullwinkle makes a good point that you should be trying to hit the Japanese LOC's with raids and LBA in the IO and area. Don't make it easy for Rader to move about freely, make him escort, make him CAP, make him worry about potential counters that upset his operations and timetable in a meaningful way.
I do like the idea of a counterstroke, I just don't think the Marshall's will garner anything for you. You need to hit Rader somewhere that will hurt him or divert forces from his current operations, the Marshall's will sadly do neither.
I still wish you luck, perhaps Rader will get overconfident and make a mistake by reacting to your Marshall operations and take the heat off India. I don't think that will happen, but you never know. Maybe he will find the lure of wiping out the remainder of your fleet just too good to turn down. You have a plan, and if you feel you can no longer deviate from it then go for it! If not and you can react fast enough I really think you should try something else, what I don't know exactly [:D], but anything other than a few Islands in the Marshall's.
I hope this doesn't come across as critical as that's not my intention at all. I just have a bad feeling [;)].
I know you are being bombarded by so many suggestions that it can seem overwhelming at times, heck the game is overwhelming for many of us, myself included.
I think the jist of what people are trying to say is that the war won't be won/lost in the Marshall's. To Rader the Central Pacific is strategically unimportant considering his deployments. The suggestion to split between Bombay and Karachi was to buy you time for a meaningful operation elsewhere. The IO and India will be the deciding battleground, but that doesn't mean you can't hurt your opponent in a meaningfull way, if what's left of India is secure. With two strongpoints tying up Japanese forces you could have begun to reinforce other theatres or mass a counter force in India to strike back and get Rader's attention. Hitting the Japanese in the Marshall's will do absolutely nothing to slow your opponent down. VP and resources wise they are a backwater. If you take a few Islands in the Marshall's...then what? Where will you then go? How will you get them there? What if the Japanese don't show? How have you hurt him? If KB does makes an appearance (highly doubtful) and wipes your fleet out thus stranding those forces to whither and die because you can no longer support/supply them. What then?
Bullwinkle makes a good point that you should be trying to hit the Japanese LOC's with raids and LBA in the IO and area. Don't make it easy for Rader to move about freely, make him escort, make him CAP, make him worry about potential counters that upset his operations and timetable in a meaningful way.
I do like the idea of a counterstroke, I just don't think the Marshall's will garner anything for you. You need to hit Rader somewhere that will hurt him or divert forces from his current operations, the Marshall's will sadly do neither.
I still wish you luck, perhaps Rader will get overconfident and make a mistake by reacting to your Marshall operations and take the heat off India. I don't think that will happen, but you never know. Maybe he will find the lure of wiping out the remainder of your fleet just too good to turn down. You have a plan, and if you feel you can no longer deviate from it then go for it! If not and you can react fast enough I really think you should try something else, what I don't know exactly [:D], but anything other than a few Islands in the Marshall's.
I hope this doesn't come across as critical as that's not my intention at all. I just have a bad feeling [;)].
Luck is the residue of design - John Milton
Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
RE: The fall of Scoodra
If you are thinking of something up north I'd hold off. I've always liked Iwo Jima myself. I've taken it in the 2nd quarter of 1942 in several games. In another game I took the islands around Saipan/Guam in mid-42 which rather put a crimp in my opponent's plans as, previously, I'd allowed him to advance down towards Noumea with just enough resistance to make it seem like I was fighting a delaying action. In the end he actually had to drain fuel from AKs etc ( meaning his entire 3,000 AV invasion force of Noumea was trapped with no way home.... ever ) in order to gather enough to send some CAs and DDs back to Truk. Of course he hadn't planned for the CVs I had lying in wait just out of sight of Guadalcanal. My point is that if you hit something in the rear you can do more damage at less cost than going head to head with those front-line troops. IIRC I utilised a total of 600 AV and lost 4 xAK in the entire operation and I basically trapped half the SRA and he had to quit when I counter-invaded the Phillipines in September '42. If I'd put those 600 AV into Noumea they'd just have been destroyed by the 3,000 AV of IJA troops there. However, instead of being destroyed piecemeal they ended up winning me the war because I applied them to a critical and poorly defended point.
So, with less you CAN do more, if you think through your taskings and strategy imaginatively. Right now though you are dancing to his tune which means you aren't going to see those sorts of opportunities.
The key thing with those two operations though was that the either cut the SLOCs to forward IJN operations or allowed me to base bombers into areas where his SLOCs to the Phillipines/mainland China were. I'm just outlining why people are having issues with an attack on the front as opposed to an attack on something behind the front lines which can dislocate his forward operations, force them to turn inward and buy you much greater disruption at much lesser cost.
In addition hitting him somewhere he really doesn't expect will mean he'll have to begin garrisoning things much more. I'm sure he has, in this game, become used to a lack of raids etc and so is garrisoning very lightly.... make him pay for that.
With this said, at the very least losing India and China will simplify your strategic situation. After they fall he'll either come for Oz ( most likely ), Pearl Harbour or the Soviet Union. Probably he'll do Oz and PH in that order. Simplifying the strategic situation is, IMO, essential for you.
So, with less you CAN do more, if you think through your taskings and strategy imaginatively. Right now though you are dancing to his tune which means you aren't going to see those sorts of opportunities.
The key thing with those two operations though was that the either cut the SLOCs to forward IJN operations or allowed me to base bombers into areas where his SLOCs to the Phillipines/mainland China were. I'm just outlining why people are having issues with an attack on the front as opposed to an attack on something behind the front lines which can dislocate his forward operations, force them to turn inward and buy you much greater disruption at much lesser cost.
In addition hitting him somewhere he really doesn't expect will mean he'll have to begin garrisoning things much more. I'm sure he has, in this game, become used to a lack of raids etc and so is garrisoning very lightly.... make him pay for that.
With this said, at the very least losing India and China will simplify your strategic situation. After they fall he'll either come for Oz ( most likely ), Pearl Harbour or the Soviet Union. Probably he'll do Oz and PH in that order. Simplifying the strategic situation is, IMO, essential for you.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
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Canoerebel
- Posts: 21099
- Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:21 pm
- Location: Northwestern Georgia, USA
- Contact:
RE: The fall of Scoodra
GreyJoy, to clarify something I said early today, you didn't reveal anything from my game with Q-Ball (I was just reminding everyone that the game may resume - hopefully - so that I wouldn't want anything to be revealed).
Now to another point. You didn't go from 3,000 AV in India to 5,000 AV by bringing in an Aussie division or so.
What this tells me is that you actually had quite a bit more AV in India than you were aware of. As you gain more experience, you'll be more aware of things like that, but the sooner you start the better. Also, it will help people in giving informed advice if they have an accurate picture of the situation. 3,000 AV was a desperately poor sitaution, but 5,600 AV is a different matter.
As always, good luck with your battles.
Now to another point. You didn't go from 3,000 AV in India to 5,000 AV by bringing in an Aussie division or so.
What this tells me is that you actually had quite a bit more AV in India than you were aware of. As you gain more experience, you'll be more aware of things like that, but the sooner you start the better. Also, it will help people in giving informed advice if they have an accurate picture of the situation. 3,000 AV was a desperately poor sitaution, but 5,600 AV is a different matter.
As always, good luck with your battles.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: The fall of Scoodra
GreyJoy, when you say that you left the railways undefended, did you at least put some scam units along the way? No reason to have it use the railways for free and let the cities open to paratroopers, while it would cost only a dozen AP points each time to interdict them...!
RE: The fall of Scoodra
Would be difficult to reply to each of you specifically, also because i'll have to repeat myself and become boring[:)]. So i'd make one reply trying to answer to the questions of all of you, hoping to be as complete and exhaustive as possible. But, first of all, let me thank you every single one of you for comments and suggestions. Thanks!
So, i see that the Marshalls adventure isn't considered strategically valuable. Nemno and SmL clearly underlined that Rader would not be touched by the loss of a couple of islands in the far south of his perimeter. Thinking about it i think you're right. This will be, at best, a side show.
Anyway it will take some 100 days to change the preparation of my troops and Rader is already fortifying and sending reinforcements to the Pacific.
Actually, to say the truth, in the last week Rader showed a new interest for the Marshalls/Gilberts. My subs spotted many transport TFs moving southwards towards the Marshalls and the intel reports an increasing volume of radio transmissions in islands (Wotje, Tarawa, Mili, etc) that have been silent like a crypt for 6 months... The fact that the KB is still hidden in the shades may really mean he has sniffed my plane with precision and he's now preparing a death trap for me[:o]
What to do so? I mean...if the KB is somewhere in the pacific, it will be a suicide to move anywhere, doesn't matter if Marshalls or Mariannas or the Solomons.
But again, all my troops are prepared for this operation and changing them now would just mean another 3 months of inaction. and everybody has always said how crazy is make an amphib landing without the right preparation...
So i'll carry on with the plan till i know where the KB is (maybe too late then). If the KB isn't there i may succeed and, even if this won't change the course of the war, i think it can put me in a good position for the upcoming months.
Another point is that if Rader really moved his main asset (the KB) to the pacific i still think India has a chance...despite what you all think i have some hopes that without the KB the door of Aden can be kept open...at least a little bit...more 50.000 supplies arrived in the last 10 days...we've lost 10 AKs in the process but that's not a huge price to pay imho.
Invading the Mariannas, or Iwo...well...a dream...i really cannot think that bigger at the moment. An invasion so deep into enemy territory would scare me like hell...and the idea of remain there...isolated from my friendly perimeter...well....too much for me...probably it's just because i never experienced anything so everything that goes way beyond what happened in RL seems to me impossible to achieve...
Let's try this one guys. Let's see if we stand a chance...if Rader in the meanwhile had reinforced under my nose the Marshalls and moved the KB right there...well...that will mean i really tried to chew a piece of cake too big for my mouth accepting to play against him...
...more to follow...
So, i see that the Marshalls adventure isn't considered strategically valuable. Nemno and SmL clearly underlined that Rader would not be touched by the loss of a couple of islands in the far south of his perimeter. Thinking about it i think you're right. This will be, at best, a side show.
Anyway it will take some 100 days to change the preparation of my troops and Rader is already fortifying and sending reinforcements to the Pacific.
Actually, to say the truth, in the last week Rader showed a new interest for the Marshalls/Gilberts. My subs spotted many transport TFs moving southwards towards the Marshalls and the intel reports an increasing volume of radio transmissions in islands (Wotje, Tarawa, Mili, etc) that have been silent like a crypt for 6 months... The fact that the KB is still hidden in the shades may really mean he has sniffed my plane with precision and he's now preparing a death trap for me[:o]
What to do so? I mean...if the KB is somewhere in the pacific, it will be a suicide to move anywhere, doesn't matter if Marshalls or Mariannas or the Solomons.
But again, all my troops are prepared for this operation and changing them now would just mean another 3 months of inaction. and everybody has always said how crazy is make an amphib landing without the right preparation...
So i'll carry on with the plan till i know where the KB is (maybe too late then). If the KB isn't there i may succeed and, even if this won't change the course of the war, i think it can put me in a good position for the upcoming months.
Another point is that if Rader really moved his main asset (the KB) to the pacific i still think India has a chance...despite what you all think i have some hopes that without the KB the door of Aden can be kept open...at least a little bit...more 50.000 supplies arrived in the last 10 days...we've lost 10 AKs in the process but that's not a huge price to pay imho.
Invading the Mariannas, or Iwo...well...a dream...i really cannot think that bigger at the moment. An invasion so deep into enemy territory would scare me like hell...and the idea of remain there...isolated from my friendly perimeter...well....too much for me...probably it's just because i never experienced anything so everything that goes way beyond what happened in RL seems to me impossible to achieve...
Let's try this one guys. Let's see if we stand a chance...if Rader in the meanwhile had reinforced under my nose the Marshalls and moved the KB right there...well...that will mean i really tried to chew a piece of cake too big for my mouth accepting to play against him...
...more to follow...
RE: The fall of Scoodra
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
GreyJoy, to clarify something I said early today, you didn't reveal anything from my game with Q-Ball (I was just reminding everyone that the game may resume - hopefully - so that I wouldn't want anything to be revealed).
Now to another point. You didn't go from 3,000 AV in India to 5,000 AV by bringing in an Aussie division or so.
What this tells me is that you actually had quite a bit more AV in India than you were aware of. As you gain more experience, you'll be more aware of things like that, but the sooner you start the better. Also, it will help people in giving informed advice if they have an accurate picture of the situation. 3,000 AV was a desperately poor sitaution, but 5,600 AV is a different matter.
As always, good luck with your battles.
Yes, i didn't consider those units guarding the Ralpawindi area and those in the northeastern corner of India.
The firepower of my units should be now a little better than those that have faced the japs till now. Brit and Aus units should rapresent, supported by armour and artillery a decent stack to face for the japs...
RE: The fall of Scoodra
ORIGINAL: Fishbed
GreyJoy, when you say that you left the railways undefended, did you at least put some scam units along the way? No reason to have it use the railways for free and let the cities open to paratroopers, while it would cost only a dozen AP points each time to interdict them...!
Yes, units are guarding every single base north of Dehli. Just small local Bns but should at least prevent paradrops and railroad-lighting tranports [:D]...oh, and i remember not to set those units into strat mod as i did in southern India...i learnt something actually [;)]
RE: The fall of Scoodra
ORIGINAL: Nemo121
If you are thinking of something up north I'd hold off. I've always liked Iwo Jima myself. I've taken it in the 2nd quarter of 1942 in several games. In another game I took the islands around Saipan/Guam in mid-42 which rather put a crimp in my opponent's plans as, previously, I'd allowed him to advance down towards Noumea with just enough resistance to make it seem like I was fighting a delaying action. In the end he actually had to drain fuel from AKs etc ( meaning his entire 3,000 AV invasion force of Noumea was trapped with no way home.... ever ) in order to gather enough to send some CAs and DDs back to Truk. Of course he hadn't planned for the CVs I had lying in wait just out of sight of Guadalcanal. My point is that if you hit something in the rear you can do more damage at less cost than going head to head with those front-line troops. IIRC I utilised a total of 600 AV and lost 4 xAK in the entire operation and I basically trapped half the SRA and he had to quit when I counter-invaded the Phillipines in September '42. If I'd put those 600 AV into Noumea they'd just have been destroyed by the 3,000 AV of IJA troops there. However, instead of being destroyed piecemeal they ended up winning me the war because I applied them to a critical and poorly defended point.
So, with less you CAN do more, if you think through your taskings and strategy imaginatively. Right now though you are dancing to his tune which means you aren't going to see those sorts of opportunities.
The key thing with those two operations though was that the either cut the SLOCs to forward IJN operations or allowed me to base bombers into areas where his SLOCs to the Phillipines/mainland China were. I'm just outlining why people are having issues with an attack on the front as opposed to an attack on something behind the front lines which can dislocate his forward operations, force them to turn inward and buy you much greater disruption at much lesser cost.
In addition hitting him somewhere he really doesn't expect will mean he'll have to begin garrisoning things much more. I'm sure he has, in this game, become used to a lack of raids etc and so is garrisoning very lightly.... make him pay for that.
With this said, at the very least losing India and China will simplify your strategic situation. After they fall he'll either come for Oz ( most likely ), Pearl Harbour or the Soviet Union. Probably he'll do Oz and PH in that order. Simplifying the strategic situation is, IMO, essential for you.
mmm...Ok, you got me this time Nemo![:)]
let's make a compromise:
I won't change the preparation targets for the units actually scheldued and involved in the Marshalls Operation (gotta find a code name for this op...any guess?) BUT...i'll start prepping right now for Iwo Jima and the Bonins some other units which are now guarding Big Island and Christmas (the 32nd Inf Div and some regiments)...overall more than 800 AVs.
If, as i fear the more and more every day, Rader has sniffed about the Marshalls and he's sending reinforcements (that i'm pretty sure he's doing it) to the Marshalls so that it will be impossible to achieve any results without risking to lose everything, we'll switch to the Bonins operation for which i'll keep those units ready at PH...
How does it sound?
RE: The fall of Scoodra
Couple of points:
1. If you wait for full prep then you will lose your opportunity. In three months time something else will have developed in the Pacific.
2. Numbers can make up for prep. 800 AV is far more than you'd need to take Iwo and Haha Jima at this stage of the war.
3. Bonins or Marianas. That's the choice.
4. Do you still hold Marcus and Wake?
5. Do you have ANY recon of the Bonins or Marianas? If not send subs to the various bases - they are the best way to get intel without it being noticed.
6. I don't think the correct approach for you here is to adopt another plan. I think the correct approach for you here is to work through the question and answer process of crafting a plan so you learn how to do that.... and can carry that knowledge through to other games. With that said, if done properly taking the Marianas or Bonins would be a good strike.
1. If you wait for full prep then you will lose your opportunity. In three months time something else will have developed in the Pacific.
2. Numbers can make up for prep. 800 AV is far more than you'd need to take Iwo and Haha Jima at this stage of the war.
3. Bonins or Marianas. That's the choice.
4. Do you still hold Marcus and Wake?
5. Do you have ANY recon of the Bonins or Marianas? If not send subs to the various bases - they are the best way to get intel without it being noticed.
6. I don't think the correct approach for you here is to adopt another plan. I think the correct approach for you here is to work through the question and answer process of crafting a plan so you learn how to do that.... and can carry that knowledge through to other games. With that said, if done properly taking the Marianas or Bonins would be a good strike.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: The fall of Scoodra
ORIGINAL: Nemo121
Couple of points:
1. If you wait for full prep then you will lose your opportunity. In three months time something else will have developed in the Pacific.
2. Numbers can make up for prep. 800 AV is far more than you'd need to take Iwo and Haha Jima at this stage of the war.
3. Bonins or Marianas. That's the choice.
4. Do you still hold Marcus and Wake?
5. Do you have ANY recon of the Bonins or Marianas? If not send subs to the various bases - they are the best way to get intel without it being noticed.
6. I don't think the correct approach for you here is to adopt another plan. I think the correct approach for you here is to work through the question and answer process of crafting a plan so you learn how to do that.... and can carry that knowledge through to other games. With that said, if done properly taking the Marianas or Bonins would be a good strike.
Ok, won't wait for full prep...let's hope.
I'd say Bonins...less problematic to do and a bit more distant from his main bases in the pacific (Truk above all). If he has sent some reinforcements for sure he's sent them down south and not to the Mariannas or the Bonins.
Unfortunately Wake and Marcus are in his hands...and i'm pretty sure both of them are garrisoned (cause i've seen in the past some intel about that).
I'll send subs so cause i don't have any recon...
Ok, i'll try to be elastic between the old plan and the new one. Above all now the prority is to understand where the KB is...
I managed to collect some 830 AVs...they're spread between Christmas, SF and PH so i'll try to move them in the next turns to PH and get ready to operate.
I got your point however about elaborating the strategic plan...let's see if i can translate this new aknoledgment into a decent pratice