I just need to say this.........

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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HexHead
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by HexHead »

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

ORIGINAL: HexHead

There was a skipper who had a fat juicy liner, 30,000 tons in the crosshairs. He got it to slow by a hit on the props, or something - it was literally a sitting duck.

Sixteen fish later, not a freakin'scratch - from point blank range, virtually a sitting target with a firing solution even an ensign could set up. The boat took one fish with them back to the barn for analysis. It took stuff like that to get Bureau of Ordnance to say, "Hmmm."

The game shouldn't use one example from the real war to make coding decisions in the game. This example happened once. And, it's a great example.

The torpedo firing pin was weak. 90 degree hits had a much higher chance of failure, compared to shorter angles. This ship was a sitting duck. The skipper lined up so an ensign could make the shot (90 degrees). unfortunately, that was the worst setup for the bad torpedoes.

If the ship was maneuvering, she would have been sunk with less than 16 torpedos. A couple would have hit at angles and the firing pin would have been less likely to shatter. The majority of the 16 fish actually hit the target. a few did run deep or angled away.

I would argue, as the OP has, that 80% is too high a dud rate. I think it should be around 70% (but, this number is pulled out of my @ss). I would also argue that the capabilities of the US S class are too effective. Historically, they (combined) sank 1 ship per month they were in action. And, quite a few of them were lost operationally.

The US fleet boats are a little less effective in 42 than they were, historically. But, most players make up for some of the deficiency by getting much better use from their S class and the Dutch boats. I guess you end up getting to the same place, but it would be nice to have it perfect.

Perfection is, essentially, chimerical in this imperfect world.

As far as WitP:AE goes - it probably is a matter of taste. As far as the game and WW2 goes - there were three major problems with the 14s, each masking the other. The problem, as a whole, wasn't completely solved until late '43. So when to give the AFB his bullets back, how, and how much, is a matter for design meetings.
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LoBaron
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Quoting Bernoulli now. This is serious!


[:D]
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erstad
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by erstad »

Of course, if anyone thinks the dud rates are too high, it's easy enough to change them.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: erstad

Of course, if anyone thinks the dud rates are too high, it's easy enough to change them.

Bingo.

And it needs to be said over again: Nobody, anywhere, at any time, knows the real dud rate. We know it wasn't zero or 100%, but beyond that, in the center of the probability distribution, it's anyone's guess. The data are massively impacted by human subjectivity and limits in the observational mechanisms at sea.

Set it to whatever rate blows your kilt up and be happy.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Quoting Bernoulli now. This is serious!

I never liked fluid dynamics...or number theory or was it...and I am stretching...Reman function?


Jacob Bernoulli was the multiple independent trials guy I believe, not Daniel Bernoulli, who was the Fluid D. guy. Lots of very smart Bernoullis in the history of math and physics.
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by Smeulders »

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

Well I can only speak for my pbem game, I'm still in late 1942 but it's now been twentyone times in a row that my sub. torps. have failed to detinate when hitting a Jap. carrier in big BK or little KB. Twenty one times in a row, now that's a little redicoulas. And as for the statement that "I haven't really tried hard enough", I could direct you to roy2008 AAR in the German forum or you could just ask him and I think he could tell you how HARD I have tried. I'm just saying it's a little hard to fight KB when he knows the torps. never go BOOOOM [:-]

You've gotten 22 attacks on a carrier, nice. Now, how many of these have been duds and not just misses ? Even if all duds, you've still got a .7% chance of it happening with an 80% dud rate. Not fun, not fun at all, but not impossible. With the number of players playing this game it was bound to happen.
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roy2008
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by roy2008 »

if i rember correctly , most of the attacks misses
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crsutton
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by crsutton »

Hmmmm.... what I really find surprising is that you have had 22 sub attacks on Japanese carriers  by late 42. Your opponent must not believe in escorts. But perhaps you have had an abundance of luck finding and shooting at subs and an abundance of bad luck hitting them. You are just having hard luck and it will balance out.

Does anyone know if an American sub hit any Japanese carrier in 1942?

In my campaign (late 43),my subs put single torpedoes in three carriers in 1942. One I think was a MK 14. Now that my torpedoes are better, I have had a run of bad luck hitting Japanese capital ships as of late-with about 10 or 15 shootings in the last six months and no hits. Just a bad streak I suppose.

I have no problem with the historical dud rate but do have a serious problem with targeting. My subs shoot at escorts over more valuable tankers and merchies way too much-and always seem to miss the escort and then get pounded.
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Bradley7735
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by Bradley7735 »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Does anyone know if an American sub hit any Japanese carrier in 1942?

Did Hiyo get severely damaged in 42 or 43?
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Dereck
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by Dereck »

One thing to remember is that with a torpedo with a dud rate of 80% it doesn't mean that:

out of 100 torpedoes fired 80 will be duds and 20 will hit, BUT

that each of the 100 torpedoes has an 80% chance of being a dud

Considering the above it would be possible to have streaks of hits and streaks of dud.
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Sredni
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by Sredni »

I had an amazing string of luck with one of the japanese CV's. A bunch of my S boats were patrolling around rabaul and I hit a CV just north of guadalcanal twice. Then I hit it again with another S boat with another 2 torpedoes a bit to the north. Then a couple weeks later hit it again twice with two non duds from a normally dudtastic fleet boat just south of truk. I'm pretty sure it finally sunk after the 6th torp heh.

But yes I've also had numerous duds on juicy targets. cruisers and BB's, CV's, CVL's, and CVE's have all laughed off duds in this game, with the one CV being the only success.

It may be frustrating, but that's historical. C'est la vie
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Bradley7735
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by Bradley7735 »

ORIGINAL: dereck

One thing to remember is that with a torpedo with a dud rate of 80% it doesn't mean that:

out of 100 torpedoes fired 80 will be duds and 20 will hit, BUT

that each of the 100 torpedoes has an 80% chance of being a dud

Considering the above it would be possible to have streaks of hits and streaks of dud.

I made a post about this in another thread. I implied that the dud rate was double counting, in a way.

for example, assume you fire 10 torpedoes at a ship. Not all of them will actually strike the hull. at least half will miss ahead and astern. So, assume 5 hit. With an 80% dud rate, 4 will be duds and 1 will explode. In this example, you have an 'ineffective' rate of 90%. Assuming 5 will strike, out of 10 is pretty high. Another poster made the comment that war ships are sort of impractical to hunt in 42 and you should hunt merchants. He's definitely got a point.

If your target has the majority of torpedoes miss, then the actual hits will seem more likely to be duds. Shooting at a DD, you can probably expect 1 out of 10 shots to strike the hull. And, that 1 has an 80% dud rate. Shooting at an AK will have a greater chance of striking the hull. So, say 6 of 10 strike. Then you'll get 1 or 2 explosions every once in a while.

So, to back up the OP, he's seeing real close to 100% 'ineffective' torpedoes. That's counting misses and duds. Since he's hunting war ships, he's definitely over 90% ineffective torpedoes. It's probably 98% considering how hard it is to strike 30 knot ships.

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Bradley7735
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by Bradley7735 »

ORIGINAL: Sredni

I had an amazing string of luck with one of the japanese CV's. A bunch of my S boats were patrolling around rabaul and I hit a CV just north of guadalcanal twice. Then I hit it again with another S boat with another 2 torpedoes a bit to the north. Then a couple weeks later hit it again twice with two non duds from a normally dudtastic fleet boat just south of truk. I'm pretty sure it finally sunk after the 6th torp heh.

But yes I've also had numerous duds on juicy targets. cruisers and BB's, CV's, CVL's, and CVE's have all laughed off duds in this game, with the one CV being the only success.

It may be frustrating, but that's historical. C'est la vie

The reason your 'dudtastic' fleet boat hit that CV is because it was slowed way down by the S class hits. Hitting a damaged ship is fairly easy in AE. Once you have an increase in hits, the dud rate isn't as critical. Shoot 6 torps, 5 hit, one will explode. If the CV wasn't damaged, shoot 6 torps, 1 hits, it's a dud. :(
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Mac Linehan
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by Mac Linehan »

ORIGINAL: Big B

Actually, if you open your editor and look up the types of torpedo assigned to the different platforms, you will find that initial dud rates vary by torpedo type.

USN submarines use the 21" Mark 14 (dud rate 80%)
USN surface ships (DDs) use the 21" Mark 15 (dud rate 60%)
USN TBD's and TBF's use the 22.4" Mark 13 (dud rate 50%).

And as stated above, the rates improve as the date progresses.

B

EDIT: A good place to find the historical information is here: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_WWII.htm

Big B -

It should have been obvious that each torpedo type has it's own dud rate - but I managed to miss it.

Thank You for the clarification - it really helps. Appreciate the link also.

Mac
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John Lansford
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by John Lansford »

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

SDhundt. USN dive-bombers with 1000lb bombs ruin Jap Cv's ,

Unless they've got armored flight decks, or even fairly thick ones like Kaga, Akagi and the Cranes have. Then you get surface explosions and have to hope you get enough to start fires. When SBD's with 500# bombs were enough to sink Akagi and Kaga at Midway, you'd think the game would simulate those bombs penetrating the flight deck, but no it doesn't.
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USSAmerica
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by USSAmerica »

I've never seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a CV and not penetrate (as in "Deck armor hit").  In fact, I don't think I've seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a BB and be turned away by the deck armor, but I could be mistaken on that one.
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HansBolter
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: USS America

I've never seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a CV and not penetrate (as in "Deck armor hit").  In fact, I don't think I've seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a BB and be turned away by the deck armor, but I could be mistaken on that one.


I've seen 1000 pounders bounce off BB turrets.

I have also seen 8" cruiser shells fail to penetrate the nonexistent deck armor of Japanese AMCs.
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USSAmerica
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by USSAmerica »

OK, turrets, I've seen repel 1000lb'ers.  
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: USS America

I've never seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a CV and not penetrate (as in "Deck armor hit").  In fact, I don't think I've seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a BB and be turned away by the deck armor, but I could be mistaken on that one.

I thought "deck armor hit" or "belt armor hit" meant the shot was deflected, maybe with some system damage. I thought you needed "penetrated" to get the full boomski.
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RE: I just need to say this.........

Post by USSAmerica »

You're thinking correctly about "Deck armor hit", Moose.  I wasn't clear enough.  However, I don't know for sure that you have to see the "penetrated" message to get the full boomski.  [:D]  Maybe you do, I'm not sure.

CV's, if hit by 1000lb bombs, do not have enough armor to prevent the full boomski. 
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