The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelton please)

[Tarhunnas]

Time for a new 41 - 45 GC. Idle hands are the devils playthings.

Starring Pelton as the Axis invaders and yours truly as the Brave Defenders of the Motherland. Server game, non-random weather, full FOW.

Turn 1. Map below before Soviet moves but after recon. The Riga gambit and the big Lvov pocket, pretty much the standard opening these days. However, some units are left in northern Courland, with port access.

[Tarhunnas]

The Soviet response. There are actually quite a few Soviet units that can be moved. Some in Moscow MD, a few at Bryansk and Voronezh, and a number in the south. With rail movement these can be moved to suitable locations to be part of the checkerboard. The first turn, the Soviets have enormous amounts of rail movement, and no factories can be moved anyway, so its a time for railing stuff around to where you want it. (Actually, IMHO Soviet rail movement should be restricted further on turn one).

Here is the northern part of the front after Soviet moves. A couple of units have been evacuated from Courland by sea movement and landed in the northern Baltics. Also one infantry corps has been railed from the South to the Pskov line, as well as a corps from Moscow MD.

[Tarhunnas]

And the southern part of the front after Soviet moves. Checkerboard all over.

With some nifty maneuvering it proves possible to open a supply route to the Lvov pocket.

[Manstein63]

His Panzers to the North of Minsk look very exposed & were you able to cut his pincer to the south of Minsk?
Manstein63

[76mm]

Looking forward to this one, good luck Tarhunnas!

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

His Panzers to the North of Minsk look very exposed & were you able to cut his pincer to the south of Minsk?
Manstein63

Yep, cut their supply. Forgot to mention that. And as you can see from the shot I was one hex from cutting off the panzers north of Minsk as well.

[TulliusDetritus]

Good luck and good hunt [8D]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

His Panzers to the North of Minsk look very exposed & were you able to cut his pincer to the south of Minsk?
Manstein63

That's apparently impossible to do, eh? A suicide, worthless option

[Manstein63]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

His Panzers to the North of Minsk look very exposed & were you able to cut his pincer to the south of Minsk?
Manstein63

That's apparently impossible to do, eh? A suicide, worthless option

Not from that screenshot it's not but then Pelton's opening move has given Tarhunnas the opportunity & it would have been silly of him not to have taken it. Also I don't believe that I have ever said that cutting off German armoured thrusts is a worthless option & suicide. If ever I have a oppertunity to isolate panzer & motorised divisions I would also take it
Manstein63

[TulliusDetritus]

Manstein, I was NOT thinking about you, believe me. I was being sarcastic, indeed... But NOT with you [8D]

Tarhunnas could have possibly bought one vital turn here so well done. That's what any Soviet should be doing on these first turns. Luck may appear, but creating your own luck is much better... That's my thesis [:)] And given that quite many disagreed (that thread I had opened in the War Room), that's where the sarcasm comes from...

[Manstein63]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Manstein, I was NOT thinking about you, believe me. I was being sarcastic, indeed... But NOT with you [8D]

Tarhunnas could have possibly bought one vital turn here so well done. That's what any Soviet should be doing on these first turns. Luck may appear, but creating your own luck is much better... That's my thesis [:)] And given that quite many disagreed (that thread I had opened in the War Room), that's where the sarcasm comes from...

I can understand that
Manstein63

[Tarhunnas]

I am an aggressive Soviet player. If I can cut the supply of some panzers I will. And if I can counterattack I will. And as you can see from the screenshots I belive in checkerboarding well forward, while preparing positions to the rear!

[Klydon]

Interesting German opening. I don't understand why he didn't even bother to try to pocket troops near Minsk. Sloppy pocket in the south as well. From his previous games, I think this opening is not up to Pelton's good standards. On top of it, Tarhunnas makes the Axis pay for nearly every mistake he made to open. I also wonder if Pelton really cares that much on the opening turn, figuring he will just bag a pile of stuff on the second turn? Still, I think he gave Tarhunnas a lot to work with in terms of units still around and not surrounded on Russian turn 1.

Good luck on this one. This should be a good match up and I am very interested to see how it goes.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Manstein, I was NOT thinking about you, believe me. I was being sarcastic, indeed... But NOT with you [8D]...And given that quite many disagreed (that thread I had opened in the War Room), that's where the sarcasm comes from...

Cutting off spearheads like this is a no-brainer and I am not sure who you think you're being sarcastic with? I don't recall anyone ever saying not to cut off panzer spearheads, especially in these opening turns, because there is actually very little to lose, a handful of rifle divisions, big deal.

And I don't understand why you say that cutting them off earns Tarhunnas a turn? It is not as if they are immobile for their turn if you cut them off, because unless the German is completely incompetent or unlucky, he will be able to reopen supply as the first step in his next turn, and presto, the "cut-off" panzers are now in supply and resume their advance.

Sure it is worth doing because you force his follow-on forces to reopen supply instead of doing whatever he wanted to do with them, and because his spearhead units will lose some supply for their next turn, but I really see such "encirclements" as being of pretty limited utility (although worthwhile, because you don't have much to lose). If I'm not right, someone please correct me.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Cutting off spearheads like this is a no-brainer and I am not sure who you think you're being sarcastic with?

Sure it is... But you will NEVER cut them off IF you are N O T... er next to Panzers in the first place... And that's the whole issue [;)] Bring forces forward etc., etc.

And to be fair, this has NOT been done a lot: the Soviets stay away from the enemy armored forces, as if this was going to save them [:D]... ergo that's why I thought I should be opening that thread (to help other players that is). After all, Moscow and Leningrad are already in the bag so why not try something er different? [:)]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

And I don't understand why you say that cutting them off earns Tarhunnas a turn?

I forgot this, sorry. From what German players say cutting units off (especially Panzers, the units that REALLY matter) HURTS. If it didn't, then that would mean there is no difference between being isolated or in supply. And that in my opinion would be utterly irrational.

When I cut my opponent's forces off, on next turn his forces do NOT advance a lot, and that on my book is one turn in my pocket.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
And to be fair, this has NOT been done a lot: the Soviets stay away from the enemy armored forces, as if this was going to save them [:D]...

Huh? I think just about everyone does this in the opening turns, it's not very controversial.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
From what German players say cutting units off (especially Panzers, the units that REALLY matter) HURTS. If it didn't, then that would mean there is no difference between being isolated or in supply. And that in my opinion would be utterly irrational.

When I cut my opponent's forces off, on next turn his forces do NOT advance a lot, and that on my book is one turn in my pocket.

I have very little experience as Germans, and my Sov forces are not in the habit of creating deep penetrations, so I will have to wait to hear from some of the German players. My impression, though, is that such cut-offs are kind of irritating but not that big of a deal.

[Klydon]

I don't think they are as big of a deal on the Russian turn 1 simply because the panzers start with huge stockpiles of gas. Their movement ability will be down just a minor amount if surrounded, so chopping them off has immediate minimal consequences (especially in the north and center). After that however, they typically suffer a huge reduction in movement and don't necessarily get that much back, even after lines are reopened. (For sure, their combat abilities go back up, but not really on the movement from what I have seen).

I would still do it (cut the spearheads off) because I think there is still some side effects that may come into play later (not as much fuel with the division for example).

[TulliusDetritus]

Yes, you're correct, Klydon. On the really first Soviet turn it's basically irrelevant. I remember I did that (my current AAR) and Alfonso told me so [:)] But after that first turn, cutting enemy units off is pure gold. It's what might make the difference and save Moscow and Leningrad. And that's a LOT.

And it's a lot of fun [:D]

[Klydon]

The other thing the Russians should be looking to really do is to tear up as many lanes of advance as possible for the German infantry. Delaying them is huge because once they show up, no Russian line is really safe from being cracked.