Oil and Refineries

[vettim89]

That was my thinking too as far as increasing the refinery capacity in the HI. It is a tit for tat thing but would start causing the problems seen in RL where the IJN was so desperate for fuel in the Southern Area that they resorted to putting raw crude into their bunkers. So enough oil/fuel to keep Japan going but once the SRA was cut off by geogrpahic captures by the Allies or sub operations (which never happens in AE), Japan would be hurting for fuel

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
Here's an option that could be considered safe. Lets say you reduce refinery capacity in the DEI by 700 devices. Just increase Home Island refinery capacity by 700 devices.

There are drawbacks and benefits to my suggestion. But, it eliminates the unknown issue of whether there would be too little fuel as the game progresses.

drawbacks: more than historical refinery capacity in the HI. 700 devices now can be used for strategic points (more than stock)
Benefits: Japan has to ship oil a lot more. Japan has to ship fuel more (less in the DEI, more in the HI.) Japan has to use fuel to ship oil and fuel.

Actually there is also possibility to change refinery output to be bigger, than input (so, for example 12 fuel for 10 oil). That way there is no need to increase refineries in Japan, and it is clear, that transporting oil will be more efficient.

[akdreemer]

I found a 1948 study most helpful as it gave a concise picture of the prewar status of oil production the region:

http://www.akdreemer.com/oil_1948_pacific.pdf

[Local Yokel]

Very interesting document; thank you for posting it. I see that it even gives details of the type of refineries in the NEI.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

I found a 1948 study most helpful as it gave a concise picture of the prewar status of oil production the region:

http://www.akdreemer.com/oil_1948_pacific.pdf

That, my friend is a find indeed. Going to take a while to digest this one

[el cid again]

Strategically, the SRA produces more than enough oil for Japan (IRL) - and there is also oil production in other places - including
Japan itself - Manchuria - and China - and a bit of shale oil (enough to get Carter administration interest in one of the processes used).
This is documented in some historical commentaries. However, PRODUCING the oil and MOVING
the oil - not to mention refining the oil in many cases - is a very different kettle of fish. Japan has lots of problems getting oil where it
is needed, when it is needed, in sufficient quantities - and losing it en route.

Game "oil" is not the same thing as real world oil. AVGAS, as someone said, is supply - never mind it comes from petroleum. Vehicle
oil and gasoline is similar. Coal is indeed ships fuel in some cases, as well as industrial fuel, and a vital part of making steel - yet it is present as a part of "resources" - and not accounted for as a fuel at all - never mind Japan actually made oil products from coal. Most of the weight of resources
moved by Japanese shipping was in fact coal. It is very hard to reconcile what should be done in terms of resource production, or even merchant ship
allocation, in this system? There are simply not enough kinds of resources, or the kinds of ways to use them, to permit a good model. But some
efforts have been made in the past to address some of the issues. For example, coal fired ships were made more fuel efficient (demanding less oil),
but less cargo efficient (less cargo for a given size).

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Strategically, the SRA produces more than enough oil for Japan (IRL) - and there is also oil production in other places - including
Japan itself - Manchuria - and China - and a bit of shale oil (enough to get Carter administration interest in one of the processes used).
This is documented in some historical commentaries. However, PRODUCING the oil and MOVING
the oil - not to mention refining the oil in many cases - is a very different kettle of fish. Japan has lots of problems getting oil where it
is needed, when it is needed, in sufficient quantities - and losing it en route.

Game "oil" is not the same thing as real world oil. AVGAS, as someone said, is supply - never mind it comes from petroleum. Vehicle
oil and gasoline is similar. Coal is indeed ships fuel in some cases, as well as industrial fuel, and a vital part of making steel - yet it is present as a part of "resources" - and not accounted for as a fuel at all - never mind Japan actually made oil products from coal. Most of the weight of resources
moved by Japanese shipping was in fact coal. It is very hard to reconcile what should be done in terms of resource production, or even merchant ship
allocation, in this system? There are simply not enough kinds of resources, or the kinds of ways to use them, to permit a good model. But some
efforts have been made in the past to address some of the issues. For example, coal fired ships were made more fuel efficient (demanding less oil),
but less cargo efficient (less cargo for a given size).

In my mod I replaced some of the resources in Manchuria with a modest Fuel allotment...with the proviso that the Japanese should not use tankers to retrieve this fuel....rather they should simply allow ships to use it to refuel.... utilze xAK's to carry it. The purpose being to represent bunker coal.

[el cid again]

That is a fine simplification. But IRL tankers went to Manchuria to get oil. A famous trip by a gigantic submarine was made to get fuel for the First Submarine Flotilla - entirely composed of sub aircraft carriers - in 1945. One sister ship of that sub was actually under construction AS a tanker too!

It is in Manchuria the shale oil project existed. It got to a pretty good level early - but was not able to be expanded as hoped or planned.
Manchuria was long after regarded as a proper source of oil by China too - although the fields eventually were depleted so it isn't any more.

Oil production in Manchuria shoud be limited - but probably not restricted from tanker transport. Few players will be aware of such a rule down the road,
even if everyone was when you made it.

Oil production shiould also exist in China. Standard oil even ran river tankers - see the Panay incident - involving one of the three more famous ones.

And of course there is oil on Sakhalin Island - properly modeled even in ancient editions of the game.

[witpqs]

A misunderstanding, Cid. The oil that he put there is meant to stand in for coal. As such, he is only using AKs to get it and/or use it for fuel, simulating those that used coal. Stretches the scenario just a little bit past which resources are accounted for in the game engine.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

A misunderstanding, Cid. The oil that he put there is meant to stand in for coal. As such, he is only using AKs to get it and/or use it for fuel, simulating those that used coal. Stretches the scenario just a little bit past which resources are accounted for in the game engine.

Correct ...the fuel allotment to which I refer is over and above what already exists in the standard scenario.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

A misunderstanding, Cid. The oil that he put there is meant to stand in for coal. As such, he is only using AKs to get it and/or use it for fuel, simulating those that used coal. Stretches the scenario just a little bit past which resources are accounted for in the game engine.

In this system, coal probably ought to be represented in more than one way. Coking coal, used to produce steel, and coal used to fuel factories, probably ought to be classified as a resource. That should be most of the coal by weight. Coal as a source of petrochemmicals could be represented as fuel I suppose - but there isn't really much of it. What was it - 200,000 or 300,000 tons a year? That is to say - not very many fuel points per day! It probably mainly comes from Manchukuo. And some of that should be supply points - to the extent it is used as avgas or vehicle fuel or lubricants or pharmasuitical items. It is so little it may be better ignored.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: witpqs

A misunderstanding, Cid. The oil that he put there is meant to stand in for coal. As such, he is only using AKs to get it and/or use it for fuel, simulating those that used coal. Stretches the scenario just a little bit past which resources are accounted for in the game engine.

In this system, coal probably ought to be represented in more than one way. Coking coal, used to produce steel, and coal used to fuel factories, probably ought to be classified as a resource. That should be most of the coal by weight. Coal as a source of petrochemmicals could be represented as fuel I suppose - but there isn't really much of it. What was it - 200,000 or 300,000 tons a year? That is to say - not very many fuel points per day! It probably mainly comes from Manchukuo. And some of that should be supply points - to the extent it is used as avgas or vehicle fuel or lubricants or pharmasuitical items. It is so little it may be better ignored.

As you know we get certain types of resources in the game and that's it. Making a scenario so complicated that almost no one would bother playing it would serve no point and I am certain that Treespider is not interested in doing that.

The coal that he is representing using the added fuel is 1) bunkerage for some xAK/xAKL (those which refuel where it's picked up); and 2) input to industries in Japan which use it once it is unloaded in Japan. It is an abstraction to cover "all the stuff" that coal is used for. The real point of the exercise is to make Japan's merchant fleet actually have to go and get the stuff.

Go have a look at Treespider's thread on his mod (link in his signature in one of the posts above) and you will get a clearer picture of what he has done.

BTW, I saw elsewhere someone recommend that you use DaBabes scenarios that JWE, Don Bowen, and others have authored as the basis for any mod that you make. I second that recommendation. In fact, there are so many well-researched changes and refinements in that group of scenarios that failing to use them as a starting point would be a serious blunder. JWE and Don are both on the AE development team and had access to see the code internals, a fact which allowed them to harmonize as much as possible the data with the code. Use Babes as a starting point for your mod and whatever you produce will be far better than it would be otherwise.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: witpqs

A misunderstanding, Cid. The oil that he put there is meant to stand in for coal. As such, he is only using AKs to get it and/or use it for fuel, simulating those that used coal. Stretches the scenario just a little bit past which resources are accounted for in the game engine.

In this system, coal probably ought to be represented in more than one way. Coking coal, used to produce steel, and coal used to fuel factories, probably ought to be classified as a resource. That should be most of the coal by weight. Coal as a source of petrochemmicals could be represented as fuel I suppose - but there isn't really much of it. What was it - 200,000 or 300,000 tons a year? That is to say - not very many fuel points per day! It probably mainly comes from Manchukuo. And some of that should be supply points - to the extent it is used as avgas or vehicle fuel or lubricants or pharmasuitical items. It is so little it may be better ignored.

As you know we get certain types of resources in the game and that's it. Making a scenario so complicated that almost no one would bother playing it would serve no point and I am certain that Treespider is not interested in doing that.

The coal that he is representing using the added fuel is 1) bunkerage for some xAK/xAKL (those which refuel where it's picked up); and 2) input to industries in Japan which use it once it is unloaded in Japan. It is an abstraction to cover "all the stuff" that coal is used for. The real point of the exercise is to make Japan's merchant fleet actually have to go and get the stuff.

Go have a look at Treespider's thread on his mod (link in his signature in one of the posts above) and you will get a clearer picture of what he has done.

BTW, I saw elsewhere someone recommend that you use DaBabes scenarios that JWE, Don Bowen, and others have authored as the basis for any mod that you make. I second that recommendation. In fact, there are so many well-researched changes and refinements in that group of scenarios that failing to use them as a starting point would be a serious blunder. JWE and Don are both on the AE development team and had access to see the code internals, a fact which allowed them to harmonize as much as possible the data with the code. Use Babes as a starting point for your mod and whatever you produce will be far better than it would be otherwise.

I support your recommendation here witpqs and I welcome Ed Cid back into the arena. I expect we will see some additional fresh ideas with his return.

I have collaborated a little with mifune on his work and I am almost positive that he uses DaBabes as a base.

OK, here is what I am more than a little worried about. This has the potential of becoming a big political firestorm that will cause problems here on the boards and especially with any ongoing support of DaBabes.

I think I will just leave it at that without further comment on the subject. I hope cool minds prevail.

Buck

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
OK, here is what I am more than a little worried about. This has the potential of becoming a big political firestorm that will cause problems here on the boards and especially with any ongoing support of DaBabes.

Buck

Not from anyone on the Babes team. We appreciate the support Babes has received, very much. We just do our thing and provide our data with as much explanation as to the why's and wherefore's as possible. People tweak, twonk, twist, and torque it up to suit their own purposes (or ignore it entirely) already. We simply do not mind.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
OK, here is what I am more than a little worried about. This has the potential of becoming a big political firestorm that will cause problems here on the boards and especially with any ongoing support of DaBabes.

Buck

Not from anyone on the Babes team. We appreciate the support Babes has received, very much. We just do our thing and provide our data with as much explanation as to the why's and wherefore's as possible. People tweak, twonk, twist, and torque it up to suit their own purposes (or ignore it entirely) already. We simply do not mind.

That's very cool!!

Buck

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: witpqs

A misunderstanding, Cid. The oil that he put there is meant to stand in for coal. As such, he is only using AKs to get it and/or use it for fuel, simulating those that used coal. Stretches the scenario just a little bit past which resources are accounted for in the game engine.

In this system, coal probably ought to be represented in more than one way. Coking coal, used to produce steel, and coal used to fuel factories, probably ought to be classified as a resource. That should be most of the coal by weight. Coal as a source of petrochemmicals could be represented as fuel I suppose - but there isn't really much of it. What was it - 200,000 or 300,000 tons a year? That is to say - not very many fuel points per day! It probably mainly comes from Manchukuo. And some of that should be supply points - to the extent it is used as avgas or vehicle fuel or lubricants or pharmasuitical items. It is so little it may be better ignored.

As you know we get certain types of resources in the game and that's it. Making a scenario so complicated that almost no one would bother playing it would serve no point and I am certain that Treespider is not interested in doing that.

The coal that he is representing using the added fuel is 1) bunkerage for some xAK/xAKL (those which refuel where it's picked up); and 2) input to industries in Japan which use it once it is unloaded in Japan. It is an abstraction to cover "all the stuff" that coal is used for. The real point of the exercise is to make Japan's merchant fleet actually have to go and get the stuff.

Go have a look at Treespider's thread on his mod (link in his signature in one of the posts above) and you will get a clearer picture of what he has done.

BTW, I saw elsewhere someone recommend that you use DaBabes scenarios that JWE, Don Bowen, and others have authored as the basis for any mod that you make. I second that recommendation. In fact, there are so many well-researched changes and refinements in that group of scenarios that failing to use them as a starting point would be a serious blunder. JWE and Don are both on the AE development team and had access to see the code internals, a fact which allowed them to harmonize as much as possible the data with the code. Use Babes as a starting point for your mod and whatever you produce will be far better than it would be otherwise.

I recommend having a theory about how your change will work in the system - how they better model events. I certainly agree that ships can use coal fuel - but I don't see how this actually simulates that? Real simulation of it would make coal fueled ships DIFFERENT in some way from oil fueled ones - something I have experimented with. It is true that resources should need to go to Japan by ship - and also that coal is MOST of that (by tonnage) - about 2/3. So coal probably needs to be "resources" mostly - or the merchant fleet is vastly too big (which seems to be the case - players can use it as invasion fodder).
As for data bases, it depends on the quality of the data. Was not a lot of work done on AE data in the first place? If it is any good, only selective changes - r additions - are required. Anyway - I am possibly the fastest database builder on the planet. If need be, I will make new ones. But for cause - and using definitions that model something.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: el cid again



In this system, coal probably ought to be represented in more than one way. Coking coal, used to produce steel, and coal used to fuel factories, probably ought to be classified as a resource. That should be most of the coal by weight. Coal as a source of petrochemmicals could be represented as fuel I suppose - but there isn't really much of it. What was it - 200,000 or 300,000 tons a year? That is to say - not very many fuel points per day! It probably mainly comes from Manchukuo. And some of that should be supply points - to the extent it is used as avgas or vehicle fuel or lubricants or pharmasuitical items. It is so little it may be better ignored.

As you know we get certain types of resources in the game and that's it. Making a scenario so complicated that almost no one would bother playing it would serve no point and I am certain that Treespider is not interested in doing that.

The coal that he is representing using the added fuel is 1) bunkerage for some xAK/xAKL (those which refuel where it's picked up); and 2) input to industries in Japan which use it once it is unloaded in Japan. It is an abstraction to cover "all the stuff" that coal is used for. The real point of the exercise is to make Japan's merchant fleet actually have to go and get the stuff.

Go have a look at Treespider's thread on his mod (link in his signature in one of the posts above) and you will get a clearer picture of what he has done.

BTW, I saw elsewhere someone recommend that you use DaBabes scenarios that JWE, Don Bowen, and others have authored as the basis for any mod that you make. I second that recommendation. In fact, there are so many well-researched changes and refinements in that group of scenarios that failing to use them as a starting point would be a serious blunder. JWE and Don are both on the AE development team and had access to see the code internals, a fact which allowed them to harmonize as much as possible the data with the code. Use Babes as a starting point for your mod and whatever you produce will be far better than it would be otherwise.

I support your recommendation here witpqs and I welcome Ed Cid back into the arena. I expect we will see some additional fresh ideas with his return.

I have collaborated a little with mifune on his work and I am almost positive that he uses DaBabes as a base.

OK, here is what I am more than a little worried about. This has the potential of becoming a big political firestorm that will cause problems here on the boards and especially with any ongoing support of DaBabes.

I think I will just leave it at that without further comment on the subject. I hope cool minds prevail.

Buck

I will ignore any fireworks. Life is too short. The comment that they don't care if anyone uses, changes or modifies the data applies equally to me. I believe in freedom. I think choices are wonderful.