Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf?

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

As far as Pelton's comments go. While I can see his point, I also think it hits what he does with the Germans particularly hard. All I can do is make the observation that he has stated in all the games he has started, he has won every single one of them and only one has gone through the winter and I would say he is on the verge of winning that.

Yes, it's amazing what you can do when you can ignore logistics.

Pelton is a good player, but what he's doing with his HQs is part of the reason for this rule change. He found a way to completely liberate the panzers from their logistical sources via HQ buildups. This is simply not intended. The idea that by leapfrogging HQs and spamming buildups you can more or less permanently keep your spearhead moving at maximum MP each and every turn regardless of distance to railhead is plainly an abuse of game mechanics. Some of his spearheads have been able to get as far as 45 hexes away from a source of supply. I really don't see how anybody can defend this sort of thing, it's way over the top. So we tweaked the rule a bit.

[Ketza]

Actually NM.

[Flaviusx]

I don't recall seeing any playtester offering medical advice.

Andy is a beast. He is not bragging, merely stating what he can do. He is our best playtester for either side. I'm seeing him doing some crazy stuff right now in a private playtest, as a matter of fact, as the Germans. There's a lot stuff going on which isn't made public for fairly self evident reasons.

[Ketza]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I don't recall seeing any playtester offering medical advice.

Andy is a beast. He is not bragging, merely stating what he can do. He is our best playtester for either side. I'm seeing him doing some crazy stuff right now in a private playtest, as a matter of fact, as the Germans. There's a lot stuff going on which isn't made public for fairly self evident reasons.

It was my mistake it was not a playtester that made that comment thats why I removed it.

The perception is out there that the Axis have long term issues. I am just stating that indeed if the Axis side has no fangs no one will want to play Axis and that cannot be good for the game long term.

Discussion on the boards will hopefully lead to a better more enjoyable experience for both sides.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
While your strategic tradeoff analysis is sound, I think you're overlooking one part of the gamesmanship you engage in:
If you succeed, you win the game early (say, 1942 or 1941 is early).
If you fail, you can just concede defeat in 1941 (oh, I'm out of trucks, supply range, and replacements - I'm doomed, nice game, I surrender).

In both of these cases, you've wasted the Soviet player's time because he never had much of a chance to actually play. If you won, he was bludgeoned by the gamesmanship enabled by HQ buildup, encircled in pocket after pocket without any ability to counter-attack (at least outside blizzard). If you failed, well, you just played about a year's worth of the game in which the Soviet was doing little else but maneuvering his 'ants' (to use Oleg's quite accurate term), the 1-1 divisions of 1941, to try to cost you more in trucks.

I've tried to express this point before, but you've done so more eloquently.

ORIGINAL: Pelton
North: The normal right hook in the north is 100% not possible.

LOL, as if that is a bad thing. IMO the right hook is one of the most gamey, unrealistic parts of the game, and it makes Lgrad far too vulnerable.

ORIGINAL: Farfarer
Of course I use Build Up ruthlessly, but it is sure as heck not IGNORING logistics - it is a massive gamble, once which could lose me the war against my opponent. Burning through 100,000 trucks on the quasi-roads of Russia and expending all my Admin points (zero leadership changes, swapping Sus or other 'luxuries') to do "HQ Leapfrog and re-assignment" is NOT a freebie.

I play Sovs and have never used HQB, but on a separate thread most German players said that the cost in trucks was no big deal.

[pompack]

Well said 76mm
[&o]

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: pompack

Well said 76mm
[&o]

+1
Germans can still do build up for panzer units that are 250 miles from the railhead (20 hexes to HQ, 5 more to unit) putting unit in full supply. This is hardly ahistorical emasculation of the Wehrmacht.

Silly old Guderian needn't have wasted all that time at Smolensk if he had known all he had to do was say 'let's do HQ build up' to make his truck drivers work harder or drive faster enabling him to take Moscow before either Hitler or Stalin could stop him. Read any history book - to do what build up achieves in this game takes weeks irl.

Build up is a gameplay concept, nothing more. Pavel has posted it needs to be replaced which I look forward to.

In the meantime it's still a good tactic for those of us not as skilled as Sabre seems to be. Equally for a german player to run his long-term prospects into the ground with excessive use knowing/thinking it doesn't matter, because he will quit if Russians don't, would be truly pathetic IMHO for GC game.

In a perverse sort of way I'm quite enjoying having my russians kicked all over the place by massed (and very skillful) use of buildup because I expect my opponent to live with the consequences. We agreed no quiting and victory to be determined against historical outcome so there is still something to play for in mid/late game - if i survive that long!

[Peltonx]

[/quote] Sabre21

If you want to win the game in 1941 as the Germans, I suggest you put the game on Easy and play the ai. It is a fantasy if you think you should be able to do this in 1941 against a human player. The campaign game is just that...a CAMPAIGN! If you find it so boring...go play something else.

Lol Sabre21 can you stop with the childish fairytales?

Where in my post did I say anything about winning in 1941?

Where son where? Stop the little childish game of changing the subject, your a Moderator? I clearly stated that its not possible to get to the 1941 historical lines. You have given no reason to refute my points other then a childish rant, lol I thk poeple expect a little more.

Sorry I hurt your feeling, but I am tring to point out why the patch is simply a GHC nerf.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

its the what ifs that make it worth playing.

Pelton

This change is hardly going to make playing grmans impossible or even much harder. For those like me who used build up occaisionally for strategic purposes only (x5 in my current game IIRC) it's not going to make much difference if any. And yes I did take Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov in 1st summer.

If this is a game wrecker for Germans, then how about impact on blizzard changes on Russians?

For me what makes it worth playing is having a game that either side can win by which I mean doing better or worse than historical result. In other words, whether russians get auto victory before historical fall of berlin. Clearly if G plays much better he should have a chance of autovictory in '42. In short I want a long game with an even chance of winning against an equal opponent.

A game that ends in '41 or '42 because german mortgaged his future in the first summer is a bit pointless IMHO and the prospect would deter me from playing as russians.

Glad to see you are not one of the giving up types though. See you on the battlefield one day

[PeeDeeAitch]

So my favorite turn 3 tactic of driving as far forward and then gassing up is done. Guess what? It is no big deal. I never even heard of HQ buildup before December, and I lose it after six months...I have 45 years of living without it. I will simply learn more about the game and play better. There are always ways to figure stuff out. My six months is pathetic to try and say anything definitive about the game.

Now, let it be known, I will still bitch about turn 4 mud.

[Peltonx]

Sillyflower its 20 mp not hexs. Normal supply is 25 hexs +5, so you are telling me I have to be anyways 5 to 15 hexs from the front lines to HQ up depending on terrain? Talk about unhistorical. Thats not even realistic.

Klydon yes I can get by with the rules, but much more then 50% of GHC can't, many can't come close to historicail lines now.
Like I said this patch is based on politics and not play testing.

Ketza makes my very point more clearly "Not complaining just pointing out the fact. I have already seen in most of my Soviet games Axis players throwing in the towel very early."

Then it don't help when the Mod takes everything like its something personal and can't even put down a basic reply other then go play somewheres esle, lol nice sale pitch. Thats just great for the new poeple showing up.

Basicly what we have is the Russian players wanting to play WW1 tactics during WW2.

How is 20 MP from a rail head historical? If you go to the map and go almost anyways that 15 hexs tops. Its hard to find anyways where your not crossing at least 2 rivers and hit a little wooded area. If you go past Smolensk there is LT woods every wheres so your taking 10 hexs and 9 if there is a river.

How can you say normal supply is 25 hexs plus 5, but HQ build up is 10 to 15 hexs from railheads? Thats not historical at all. Thats not even realistic. I have to be 100 miles behind the front to HQ build up?

Sabre21 I would like a responce to that P.

Instead of some unrealistic rule change they could have simply made the cost so it would be close to 40 or 50 AP's and be 25 HEXS from a railhead, so the GHC could only do 1 a turn or be forsed to save AP's to do a bunch at a key time. This would have forsed poeple to think more. This would have kept the game interesting for most poeple and not a WW1 grind after turn 3. I know I know that would keep the game fun and intersting with allot of what ifs still.

Pelton

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Now, let it be known, I will still bitch about turn 4 mud.

My own view has always been that German players are insane for ever considering playing a grand campaign with random weather. Yes, you might get lucky later on with snow instead of blizzard turns and whatnot.

But that hardly makes up for mud in July.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Sadly, my sanity has been questioned often. The very first time I played with random weather - BLAMMO! mud on turn 4. Oh well.

[Peltonx]

Flaviusx I am sure Sabre21 is one of the best players for eather side no one is questioning that. Getting to xy and z by turn 3 is not that hard even an average player like myself can master that withen a few weeks. Its what happens after that. By turn 3 the GHC tanks and HQs are way past 20 MP's from a railhead. They can be withen 30 hexs for sure. What the new rule is stating is I have to with draw my units 50 to 100 miles to do and HQ build-up.

Does that even sound historical or realistic for that matter? Erich von Manstein advances 300 miles but had to retreat 100 miles to refuel?

Most germans now can't come close to the historical lines of 1941 vs an equally skilled player.

I guess Ketza will be telling us all "I told you so" a few weeks.

Pelton

[Scook_99]

My friend won't play without random weather. Time for him to be German, and do it before patch 1.04 becomes official. I think he needs to feel my pain.

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Sorry I hurt your feeling, but I am tring to point out why the patch is simply a GHC nerf.

You didn't hurt my feelings any.

As for reaching historical lines in 41 as the Germans against an opponent of equal skill..sure you can, but it will be and should be a tough game.

Like I said before, it is no nerf. It changed an exploited game function to be more in line with what was originally intended. By the way, I'm interested in what "politics" you figure were the reason for this change. It was discussed on the tester forum and the game designers made their decision and was added to the beta patch at the last minute.

Knowing that this is a beta patch, things can and usually do change at times. These beta patches are released to let the public play them without having to wait for the official patch. Sometimes we get a few weeks, sometimes we only get a day or two when changes are made. Then consider there are only a few active testers now and they all have regular lives too, so getting in a turn every couple days in a pbem is about as much as can be expected.

Don't forget in this 1.04 beta patch there have been changes made to make the blizzard much more survivable by the Germans, Soviet armament points have been drastically cut, and the refit morale increase was removed from frontline units in refit.

So to say 1.04 is all a German nerf is incorrect.

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Now, let it be known, I will still bitch about turn 4 mud.

My own view has always been that German players are insane for ever considering playing a grand campaign with random weather. Yes, you might get lucky later on with snow instead of blizzard turns and whatnot.

But that hardly makes up for mud in July.

Hey..I'm playing Pieter with random weather on. I believe it hurts the Soviets more so than the Germans. So you might get stalled as the Germans one turn during the summer in one or more zones. It could just as easily hit a zone affecting the Soviets rather than the Germans or not happen at all. Then in mud season it can be clear or snow, something the Soviets don't want to see, or you could end up with snow during the blizzard and all of Feb 42..again not good for the Soviets.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Ketza makes my very point more clearly "Not complaining just pointing out the fact. I have already seen in most of my Soviet games Axis players throwing in the towel very early."

I think this says more about the Axis players than the game; many of them seem to lose interest when they realize they won't win outright in 1941. Go figure...

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Now, let it be known, I will still bitch about turn 4 mud.

My own view has always been that German players are insane for ever considering playing a grand campaign with random weather. Yes, you might get lucky later on with snow instead of blizzard turns and whatnot.

But that hardly makes up for mud in July.

Hey..I'm playing Pieter with random weather on. I believe it hurts the Soviets more so than the Germans. So you might get stalled as the Germans one turn during the summer in one or more zones. It could just as easily hit a zone affecting the Soviets rather than the Germans or not happen at all. Then in mud season it can be clear or snow, something the Soviets don't want to see, or you could end up with snow during the blizzard and all of Feb 42..again not good for the Soviets.

I think it is really a luck thing. If you get lucky or unlucky with the weather at a crucial turn, it can affect the whole campaign, for both sides. I am happy to play with random weather as the German, I have indeed done that in several campaigns, for example in my AAR tm.asp?m=2792361. In that campaign, random weather had no dramatic effects either way. However, I do think that random weather is a little too random. It would be very nice to have it a little less wild and crazy. For example, if there is to be mud in July or August, I think it should be some kind of "summer mud" with much less sever effects than the spring and autumn Rasputitsa.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Sorry I hurt your feeling, but I am tring to point out why the patch is simply a GHC nerf.

You didn't hurt my feelings any.

As for reaching historical lines in 41 as the Germans against an opponent of equal skill..sure you can, but it will be and should be a tough game.

Like I said before, it is no nerf. It changed an exploited game function to be more in line with what was originally intended. By the way, I'm interested in what "politics" you figure were the reason for this change. It was discussed on the tester forum and the game designers made their decision and was added to the beta patch at the last minute.

Knowing that this is a beta patch, things can and usually do change at times. These beta patches are released to let the public play them without having to wait for the official patch. Sometimes we get a few weeks, sometimes we only get a day or two when changes are made. Then consider there are only a few active testers now and they all have regular lives too, so getting in a turn every couple days in a pbem is about as much as can be expected.

Don't forget in this 1.04 beta patch there have been changes made to make the blizzard much more survivable by the Germans, Soviet armament points have been drastically cut, and the refit morale increase was removed from frontline units in refit.

So to say 1.04 is all a German nerf is incorrect.

I am happy to hear the opinions and experiences of others, but I do think there is occasionally a tendency on the forum to inflate fears about perceived effects of changes. Often, the changes are not as dramatic as they may appear. I am starting a new 41 GC as the Germans against an expert opponent, Q-ball. AAR coming soon on a forum near you[8D]! I will relay my experiences of the new buildup rules when I feel I have gathered enough experience to express a well founded opinion.