Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved..

[Michael T]

For me the game has too many ants that won't die easily. I agree with Kelblau. Get rid of the ants. Nothing on the map less than a division. OR make the ants die much easier, also for overwhelming attacks the ammo, fuel and MP expenditure needs to be reduced. Multiple dug in lines of ants is crazy. It needs to be fixed.

[Mynok]

Please stop with the "sheer madness" ranting, it is getting harder and harder to take you seriously. For starters, you have a rather pathetic engineer level of 1, which should be higher when attacking entrenched positions. Frankly, in this battle, I don't really see the issue: the Germans attacked a fortified position without adequate pioneer or air support (and a pretty scant arty advantage) and succeeded in pushing the Sovs back after suffering relatively heavy casualties. What exactly is the problem?

If people would just green button wackos like this, we'd actually get something accomplished here.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Please stop with the "sheer madness" ranting, it is getting harder and harder to take you seriously. For starters, you have a rather pathetic engineer level of 1, which should be higher when attacking entrenched positions. Frankly, in this battle, I don't really see the issue: the Germans attacked a fortified position without adequate pioneer or air support (and a pretty scant arty advantage) and succeeded in pushing the Sovs back after suffering relatively heavy casualties. What exactly is the problem?

If people would just green button wackos like this, we'd actually get something accomplished here.

It is not completely clear from your post who's the wacko, but I think I can make a fair guess... [;)]

[Flaviusx]

Hey, if somebody just wants to hand me a bunch of tank and rifle corps for free in an attempt to rid the game of ants...I'm totally cool with that.

[Mynok]

76mm is hardly a wacko. I thought it was quite obvious.

[Michael T]

I would make Tank X attach to Divs just like Stugs do. Once Tank Corp become available allow them to built on map by drawing from the pool of Tank X. Same for Inf X and Para X.

Why should it cost 3MP (much more if across a river), Fuel, fatigue and Ammo to attack a Tank X with 6 tanks? Sorry this should cost 0MP and it should dissapear from the map if hit by a Division size unit.

[Flaviusx]

Soviets didn't attach tank brigades to divisions until the very end of the war. (They did this in Manchuria, and it worked very well there.) It flat out doesn't make sense to treat them like an SU, not in the context of this game. Same argument alas applies to rifle brigades.

They were in fact independent entities for a time and even after tank corps absorbed most of them, used frequently as forward detachments.

[PeeDeeAitch]

I'm sad because the game is broken and I never realized it! Here I was having fun the whole time. I demand my money back.

[abulbulian]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

I'm sad because the game is broken and I never realized it! Here I was having fun the whole time. I demand my money back.

Sorry to me this is a bad attitude. Yeah it's a fun game. So what if it has some very unrealistic/unhistorical battle results. Who cares to make it a better game, just play and enjoy. Right? Guess I know where you're coming from?

Of course that is your prerogative and anybody else that doesn't have a clue about the history of the conflict or just wants to play an ignore the inaccuracies. You payed your money .. so enjoy and leave the improvements to those that have the passion for it.

But once again we have another comedian that wants to make a joke when others want to assist WitE improve.

Go enjoy the game, but then don't come in the forums and make jokes that IMO are counter-productive and insulting.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Thank you!

[Michael T]

Soviets didn't attach tank brigades to divisions until the very end of the war. (They did this in Manchuria, and it worked very well there.) It flat out doesn't make sense to treat them like an SU, not in the context of this game. Same argument alas applies to rifle brigades.

They were in fact independent entities for a time and even after tank corps absorbed most of them, used frequently as forward detachments.

For sure but were they digging trenches before sent to the front? I like that we have Tank X in the game but not when they have overated effects like zoc/attack costs etc. I am saying either remove them or fix the problem. It's ok to tone down HQ BU etc, I agree but balance the ledger by removing or lessening the effects of the ants. Thats all. If players don't think there is a problem with ants then I so be it. I think there is.

[jzardos]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Ok, I'll take a stab at the last example. What was the ammo status of the attacking units (I assume you can't know the defending unit's ammo situation)? The defender being dug in fort level 2 allows some pre-targeted artillery bonuses. The defending unit gets supported by 3 artillery/rocket regiments. We're not talking AT guns and mortars here, but possibly major amounts of artillery. The German CVs are nothing to write home about. Did these units have a lot of damaged elements before the battle? What is the leadership quality of the leaders involved? There are just too many factors that your screenshot does not tell us to even begin to examine what is going on here.

To be honest, when you posted this "This to me is just such an injustice to gamers and an even the actual veterans alike." I had to laugh. I've been making wargames for over 30 years and I never knew that unlikely combat results (assuming that the unknown factors can't explain this) would ever be viewed as an injustice to gamers, let alone to the veterans. I'd say this is hyperbole at it's best.

The ammo situation and supply was 90%+.

Well I can see that most people would rather just kiss some WitE a** and write off my proof as not worthy of any investigation. Must just be happening to me. Either way I didn't see anybody attempt to suggest they thought my battle result posts were fine and acceptable results. So I will take it that I'm correct that it is NOT. But, as long as it doesn't happen to others, then I guess they have no problems.

IMO, there's a group of you with your 'sheepish' mindset and inability to add constructive criticism to WitE are not doing the game any favors. I tried to gather some data and present it, but that's only backfired and got most of you to run to the defense of WitE. So be it. I'm done trying to help in this 'hostile' community and will just patiently wait until at some point the issues are actually found and resolved.

[Flaviusx]

The problem is that too many players aren't making tank corps with these brigades. They are instead opting for a strategically uncreative and frankly boring carpet defense.

[pompack]

Yep, it reads a lot more coherently with the green button.

Now I can see the comments and the responses without the rants getting in the way.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Pompack green buttoned me [:(]

[Michael T]

The problem is that too many players aren't making tank corps with these brigades. They are instead opting for a strategically uncreative and frankly boring carpet defense

100% agree. But add it is also unrealistic and
should be punished with not much cost to the enemy.

A hasty attack versus a stack of 2 divisions costs 3MP (For Mot units). It cost same
even if the stack is just a single brigade. Base the MP hasty attack costs on some other criteria that would mean say 0MP or 1 MP against such units. Reduce the ammo costs as well for overwhelming attacks. Reduce the Zoc effects as well. Result no more ants and such ahistorical tactics. Better game.

[Mynok]

Interesting thought there, to prorate ZOC costs based on unit size and ability to interdict movement. I'm assuming both are in mind there, and even if they aren't, they probably should be. This would of course apply to the German regiments and brigades as well.

[Kiith]

Honestly I prefer Tank Bde’s to corps for the reason that you state. Forming them into corps is costly in terms of AP and possibly more importantly vehicles and what you gain isn’t a really useful combat unit until it’s been trained up for a few months. Plus then you really need to use them en masse to get the full benefit, which just magnifies the above problems.

Basically with the current system it’s more efficient to leave them as Bde’s until the soviets what to go over to the offensive. So I don’t mind the idea of lessening the ZoC of these smaller units (assuming for both sides) certainly it seems a better solution than removing them from the map or allowing them to attach to Divisions.

[Flaviusx]

The quickest way to get a tank corps trained up is to hurl them against the German invader.

And anyhow, not making tank corps just slows down and delays their introduction. You aren't going to get to Berlin with ants. Soviet players don't seem to get this, and don't understand how to do jujitsu instead of trench warfare. A staring contest across belts of forts by both sides in 1942 is, ultimately, to the German advantage. (This is something that German players aren't getting, too.)

The key to victory lies not in static warfare, but mobile warfare...on Soviet terms and on ground of Soviet choosing, with Soviet mobile reserves smashing the German.

[randallw]

I see these occasional "casualty madness" claims, but without the context of actual casualty numbers, from smaller size battles ( a few divisions here or there ) in 1942, being posted along with the complaints.