Can someone explain this

[EisenHammer]

How did I loss 1/3rd of my afv?

[Klydon]

Guessing a lot of those were possibly light tanks. You attacked two corps that had artillery support. (574 guns is a fair amount).

[Flaviusx]

That's what happens when you attack two corps with three panzer divisions. You are lucky to have won the battle at all seeing as you were outnumbered in men and guns.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

That's what happens when you attack two corps with three panzer divisions. You are lucky to have won the battle at all seeing as you were outnumbered in men and guns.

and had no air support

[EisenHammer]

I had CV of 4.8 to 1 in clear terrain with a fort level of 1, something is not right about this battle.
I should not loss 99 AFV in this fight. For one thing the Germans should had call off the attack way before losing 99 AFVs.

It was the death ride of the 3rd Panzer corps.

And also the Soviets had no air support.

[pompack]

EH

We could not see the displayed CV ratio before the attack, but now we know it was 4.8 to 1.

So
In Summer 41 I would not hesitate to hasty a couple of divisions in a fort with that displayed ratio even if I did not have any engineer support (although I can't imagine that since I will always put an engineer into each PzDiv just to handle forts)
HOWEVER, I would do a deliberate attack with three mobile divisions against a couple of corps in 42 if they had no fort and I would feel it was a gamble if I tried a deliberate with no engineers and no infantry against a force that strong in a fort (even a level 1).

But then I am a chicken about that sort of thing; I have seen too many of my carefully protected, precious panzers ruined attacking dug-in AT guns without infantry and engineer support.

Bad die rolls happen, but you can minimize the effects with a balanced force. My advice for the future is to attach an engineer to each PzDiv and to include a MotDiv in any stack attacking a rifle corps suppoorted by tanks and artillery. Also you should display either experience or morale as a soft factor (and switch between them to check out the opposition when you are looking at risky attacks). In 41 you can get away with almost anything, but by 42 you have to treat Ivan with respect (especially with rifle corps). After the blizzard, some of those units can have quite respectable morale and experience (and displaying the soft factors can give you powerful clues about where those particular units are located).

[jzardos]

IMO, this is exactly part of what is wrong with WitE combat results. In 1942 three experienced German Panzer div would have rolled-up those 2 Corps. For people that haven't read what I'm reading now about the east front is that in 42 a Sov Corps was about equivalent to a German div. Throw in were talking about Panzer units (elite) and it's gets even uglier for the Soviets.

The reason why combat in WitE can seem so bogus in 1942 is the loses don't reflect the key advantages of the Germans: superior tactics, superior exp, superior leadership, and superior command and control. There was a wide gap in 42 between the top German units (SS, Panzers, Mot, etc) and the Soviet rifle/cav units.

So explain it how you want.. it just don't fly with history.

No way in hell given the terrain and fort level that the panzers units would have lost more. Yeah so they had arty, but once again WitE has not done research on how effective Sov arty was in 1942. Only really the Americans mastered the use of arty in WW2 to it's maximum effect on the battlefield. Sure Soviets had a ton of it later in the war (late 43 and onward).. but not as much as they can get in 42 in WitE.

So fix arty too while they're fix the loses taken by exp units loses. I know for a FACT there are testers that feel that loses by experience German units are too HIGH. Maybe someday the devs will wake up and do something about it.

Oh one last bit of fiction for those people that think the result makes sense. Ask yourselves how the heck those Soviet Corps were able to retreat so effectively and only lose 29 of the 500+ guns (sure mortars can be withdrawn easier)? Yes, retreat against Panzer divisions and only losing 5% of guns? Lol, please. Fix the guns lost during routes and retreats would go a long way to help reducing Soviet arty to more realistic levels in 42 and onward.

[jzardos]

Here's a little interesting gift WitE left me. Some will try and suggested my units didn't have ammo or something else to explain it.. nope.. plenty-o-ammo. [;)] The 131 ID was a little fatigued, I think.

Overall guess my units here we just having a bad day..it's that hidden WitE mod for 'bad' day.

Or maybe I'm not really fighting Soviets but rather British commandos just dressed up like a ragged understrength Soviet rifle div. [:'(]

Hate it when that happens to me. Not too much to try and fix here..just lower the final loses high experience and high morale troops incur ..just way too high. Not asking for an overhaul of the combat system. I actually think most of it is really cool.

[EisenHammer]

ORIGINAL: pompack
Bad die rolls happen,

I guess the 3rd panzer corps got ambush.
Thats the way I'm going to look at it for now.
But I'm starting to think that the randomness of the battles or dice rolls are getting a little bit to random.

[Helpless]

How did I loss 1/3rd of my afv?

Any chance to have a save prior the combat?

[EisenHammer]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

How did I loss 1/3rd of my afv?

Any chance to have a save prior the combat?

Yes sir... I do

where do I send it.

[mantrain]

Hello Eisenhammer. Can you please tell me how you get those graphics/lettering on the map? Seems like a graphic upgrade.

[EisenHammer]

sure i got them from Scenario Design and Modding part of the forums, (REL) Place Names Mod by Redmarkus.
I try to link it but it was not working.

[EisenHammer]

@ Helpless
file sent [:)]

[Helpless]

I think the reason is that you strike at the "just merged" Corps which has 180% of TOE with tons of ready(!) guns(AT).



But even with such amount most of the AFV losses are damaged AFV, which can be recovered if you have enough of support.

I've tried to run it several times and results were very variable form 18 damaged German AFVs to 100 AFV. To emulate your results I had switch GS off (otherwise Axis losses were much lower), but Soviet always had some GS presence. The biggest toll I've got was:

Destroyed:
Panzer IIf destroyed by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle - range 125
Panzer IIIj L/60 destroyed by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle - range 125
Panzer IIc destroyed by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle - range 125
Panzer IIIe destroyed by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle - range 125
Panzer IIIj L/60 destroyed by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle - range 125
Panzer IIc destroyed by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle - range 125
Panzer IIIj L/60 destroyed by Flamethrower
Panzer IIIj L/60 destroyed by Flamethrower
Panzer IIIj L/42 destroyed by Flamethrower
Panzer IIIe destroyed by Flamethrower

Damaged:
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 152mm ML-20 Gun-Howitzer
Panzer IVf damaged by 152mm ML-20 Gun-Howitzer
Panzer IVf damaged by 152mm ML-20 Gun-Howitzer
Panzer IIc damaged by 76.2mm F-22-USV Field Gun
Panzer IIf damaged by 76.2mm F-22-USV Field Gun
Panzer IIc damaged by 76.2mm F-22-USV Field Gun
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 122mm A19 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 152mm ML-20 Gun-Howitzer
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 152mm ML-20 Gun-Howitzer
Panzer IVf damaged by 152mm ML-20 Gun-Howitzer
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IVf damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIc damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIc damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IVf damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIf damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIf damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIf damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIf damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIc damaged by 45mm M37/38 Gun
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIg damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIg damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIg damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIg damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIc damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIc damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIc damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIc damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIc damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIc damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIg damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzerjager I damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IVf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 152mm ML-20 Gun-Howitzer
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 152mm ML-20 Gun-Howitzer
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 152mm ML-20 Gun-Howitzer
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 152mm ML-20 Gun-Howitzer
Panzer IIIj L/42 damaged by 152mm ML-20 Gun-Howitzer
Panzer IIf damaged by 12.7mm DShK AAMG
Panzer IIc damaged by 12.7mm DShK AAMG
Panzer IIIe damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIj L/60 damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIf damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIIg damaged by 14.5mm PTRD AT-Rifle
Panzer IIf damaged by 76mm M27/39 Gun
Panzer IIf damaged by 76mm M27/39 Gun
Panzer IIc damaged by 76mm M27/39 Gun
Panzer IIf damaged by 12.7mm DShK AAMG
Panzer IIc damaged by 12.7mm DShK AAMG
Panzer IIc damaged by 12.7mm DShK AAMG

I'll take a look what could be done to avoid such monster units at the merge.

[Helpless]

Andy/Joel, can you please move it to Tech Forum section. Thanks.

[randallw]

700+ AT rifles [:D]

[Zebedee]

Another victory for the Soviet sniper corps? [X(]

[Klydon]

I don't see AT rifles being that effective at all against PZ-III's, especially the J model. A 45mm AT gun should have a really hard time punching out a J let alone a AT rifle. 

[Helpless]

I don't see AT rifles being that effective at all against PZ-III's, especially the J model. A 45mm AT gun should have a really hard time punching out a J let alone a AT rifle.

That's right, ATRs were very ineffective and used mostly against armored cars. Obviously very high amount is skewing the results and most of the losses are damaged - will be recovered shortly, but it was bit surprising for me as well.