Auto attachment of Support Units

[Emx77]

I'm at turn 10 PBEM GC '41 as Axis. Game is started with locked HQ option but, as I'm not big fan of micromanagement, somewhere around turn 6 I decided to activate automatic attachement of support units. In order to distribute SU's more evenly among corps HQ's I used following settings for support levels:

O.K.H.: 0
Army Groups: 0
Armies: 0
Corps: 1-4

What I have noticed is that in this critical phase of campagin I am lacking artillery support. After four turns, many of my Corps with support level 3 or 4 doesn't have any artillery support units. Closely examination revealed that artillery and flak SU's are sitting idle at O.K.H (see screenshot).

Is this WAD or I set something wrong?

[Flaviusx]

This is why people play with locked HQs. The automated distribution system isn't amazing and will do irksome things.

However. Your situation is easily fixed. You can transfer all that stuff in OKH to subordinate Army HQs for no cost.

I am actually pushing to revamp this mess entirely, btw, and believe that SUs transfers between HQs should be absolutely free, period. The present system is not at all to my taste and involves a lot of really deeply silly in game rituals in order to minimize the amount of APs spent on a game function that shouldn't involve APs at all. So far as I am concerned, a support unit moving from one HQ to another ought to be treated the same way we treat air units and have no AP impact at all. Instead, we have this half assed system of a horrendously inefficient automated redistribution, free transfers from STAVKA/OKH to subordinate HQs in range (which leads to the silly game mechanic of railing these HQs around the Front to avoid the AP hit) and finally AP costs.

Just simplify the damn thing and get APs out of it. Don't punish players who want to micromanage their SU attachments.

[Emx77]

@Flavio, If I didn't set something wrong this means that Automatic attachment system IS BROKEN. It's understandable that automatic attachement will not result in optimal distribution of SU's but it should represent some middle ground for people who don't want to manage everything manually.

Manual says if you want to minimize the number of support units in a HQ unit, use a setting of ‘0’ so that the only support units the computer will send to the HQ will be the permanent levels of construction and engineers (p. 147). As I set OKH support level to 0 there shoudn't be artillery units at all in OKH, right? In this case they are sitting at OKH, God knows for how long, in situation where I desperately need them at front. [:@]

[Helpless]

O.K.H.: 0
Army Groups: 0
Armies: 0
Corps: 1-4

Such setting would not create SU flow, in opposite all HQ with 0 will try to return their SU to the HHQ. So all of them will end up in OKH. Before satisfying lower HQ upper HQ should get some SU first. By setting most of the chain to 0 you are restricting the "flow".

You need to have some sort of the difference between various levels - 1-2-3-4 or 1-1-1-4.

[Emx77]

Pavel, according to manual setting of "0" should minimize the number of support units in a HQ, but still allow automatic transfer through that HQ unit. Why they are going then to higher HQ when higher HQ also have setting of "0"?

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Pavel, according to manual setting of "0" should minimize the number of support units in a HQ, but still allow automatic transfer through that HQ unit. Why they are going then to higher HQ when higher HQ also have setting of "0"?

Never set "0" to some HQs in the chain - they will not transfer support units below!


BTW, AFAIK, the manual does not state what you wrote above...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Flaviusx]

I'm actually sympathetic to what Emir is saying here and think the system is poorly conceived.

There are good reasons from a player standpoint for wanting 0 priority HQs midchain. SUs in mid level formations don't really do you a whole lot of good (aside from construction assets, and that's a whole other mess we will leave aside for a different rant.)

If you are a German, you want your combat SUs in corps, and the Soviet wants them in his armies -- or possibly in STAVKA/OKH. The game forces you to disburse these assets along the entire chain of HQs between top and bottom.

Eventually players throw up their hands, lock HQs, and just do it manually, while trying to avoid the AP costs involved.

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

BTW, AFAIK, the manual does not state what you wrote above...

Manual p. 147:

"Game play tip: Want to minimize the number of support units in a HQ unit, but still allow automatic transfer through that HQ unit? Use a setting
of ‘0’ so that the only support units the computer will send to the HQ will be the permanent levels of construction and engineers."

...and, where in manual is said that setting of "0" will prevent transfer of support units below?

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'm actually sympathetic to what Emir is saying here and think the system is poorly conceived.

There are good reasons from a player standpoint for wanting 0 priority HQs midchain. SUs in mid level formations don't really do you a whole lot of good (aside from construction assets, and that's a whole other mess we will leave aside for a different rant.)

If you are a German, you want your combat SUs in corps, and the Soviet wants them in his armies -- or possibly in STAVKA/OKH. The game forces you to disburse these assets along the entire chain of HQs between top and bottom.

Eventually players throw up their hands, lock HQs, and just do it manually, while trying to avoid the AP costs involved.

I extensively tested this during ALPHA/BETA in several rather large threads in Developer's subforum.

It was always clear from my tests and other tests that mid-chin HQs can't be "0"...

BTW, I played many many games vs Humans and vs. AI with this system (i.e. using Admin points to just build new Support Units" and other important stuff and leaving the distribution to automation)!


Leo "Apollo11"

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

BTW, AFAIK, the manual does not state what you wrote above...

Manual p. 147:

"Game play tip: Want to minimize the number of support units in a HQ unit, but still allow automatic transfer through that HQ unit? Use a setting
of ‘0’ so that the only support units the computer will send to the HQ will be the permanent levels of construction and engineers."

...and, where in manual is said that setting of "0" will prevent transfer of support units below?

I will change / clarify that in upcoming updated manual - thanks for info!


Leo "Apollo11"

[Flaviusx]

Emir, this is the way it works, alas. 0 priority HQs midchain form a chokepoint in distribution of SUs.

So if you want to make use of the automated distribution system to get assets in your lowest level HQs -- the ones who actually need combat SUs -- you will have to set the mid level HQs to a non zero priority and accept inefficiencies and combat SUs parked in mid level HQs with few or no combat maneuver forces attached to them to make use of said SUs. It's pretty chuckleheaded, but there it is.

[Flaviusx]

Leo, you are misunderstanding me here. I get how it works. I'm saying it works badly.

There is a reason the vast majority of players hate the automated system and go with manual transfers.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Leo, you are misunderstanding me here. I get how it works. I'm saying it works badly.

There is a reason the vast majority of players hate the automated system and go with manual transfers.

Ahh... yes Flavio... missunderstanding... [:)]


BTW, I managed to live with this "strange" system ("that many hate" [;)]) and had some good success and large Admin point savings!

It is always two sided decision - save Admin points and leave automatic to work with constant human adjustment to "Support Level" numbers (and remembering that you can always "Lock" if necessary) or just directly spend Admin points - the decision is on player...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Flaviusx]

The AI makes a hash of things and stuff simply doesn't get to were you want it to go. The only advantage is the lack of AP cost.

So what winds up happening is this (from the Soviet side anyways): you funnel a ton of SUs to STAVKA via automated distribution, then lock everything, and then manually transfer SUs from STAVKA to army HQs bypassing Fronts completely for free -- and rail STAVKA around the front so it is in range of the destination army HQ.

This, I submit, is a preposterous way to do things. The game is forcing me to undertake this incredibly tedious workaround to get things set up the way I want to while avoiding the AP expenditure.

[Helpless]

Why they are going then to higher HQ when higher HQ also have setting of "0"?

Emir, they would send some to lower, but you set them to 0 as well. There is no very deep chain checks during the automatic SU movement, so you should have some sort of the demand on all levels to create movement towards the desired place. Yes it may need to freeze some assets at the mid-chain, but you can minimize it by varying the settings. At some point 0-0-0-4 may works well.

[pompack]

I'm with Flavio here. It should cost AP to create a non-existent SU. Once it is created it should move about just like air units without requiring additional AP.

[fbs]

I'm for one am in favor of zero-cost transfers --up to a limit--.

Say you can give 1 free unit per division, 2 per corps, 3 per army, 5 per front, or something like that. Whatever is a reasonable limit for organic support units, up to that it should be free. Beyond that, pay them AP in ever increasing amount.

Or, instead of paying AP, just make the support units cost Command Points...

[TAIL_GUNNER]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'm actually sympathetic to what Emir is saying here and think the system is poorly conceived.

There are good reasons from a player standpoint for wanting 0 priority HQs midchain. SUs in mid level formations don't really do you a whole lot of good (aside from construction assets, and that's a whole other mess we will leave aside for a different rant.)

If you are a German, you want your combat SUs in corps, and the Soviet wants them in his armies -- or possibly in STAVKA/OKH. The game forces you to disburse these assets along the entire chain of HQs between top and bottom.

Eventually players throw up their hands, lock HQs, and just do it manually, while trying to avoid the AP costs involved.

Awhile ago I thought I had come up with a brilliant way to manually control all my German Support Units....make them on-map combat units!

Unfortunately though, a unit size of 'Battalion' gets nuked when it moves next to a regular-sized combat unit.....

Sure would like to try it out though...

[Scook_99]

My experience in the 1942 scenario is the 501 Heavy Tank Battalion (aka Tigers!) is assigned to the most northern Corps HQ that is closest to Leningrad. I would lock the headquarters and get the unit to where I wanted, and then I unlocked to see what would happen, and poof, right back to the Leningrad area. My question to you is could I get extra AP to shoot logistic officers until they send my tank in the right direction?

[CMoore]

I couldn't have said it any better than Flavius has in this thread.

The current SU attachment system is my biggest complaint with an otherwise great game.