Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective

[Arstavidios]

Hi this is the overall situation at the end of soviet turn 8.
My losses are now around 1.6 million

In the North the German spearheads are about to cross the Volkow.

In the center they are a couple of hewes away frow tula.

in the South they are at the gates of stalino

This is the first turn of august 1941.
I did not play a robin strategy And I tried to slow down the Germans as much as possible. Many successfull counterattacks including on mobile divisions. yet at this stage the game is already just about lost. My industry is about to get wiped out. I evacuated what i could but that's not enough. Germans are two or three mons ahead of schedule.

I'm gonna try to to hold Moscow and Leningrad as long as possible. in the south, looks like i'll have to run all the way to Stalingrad and hope the mud hits before the germans get there.

[karonagames]

in the south, looks like i'll have to run all the way to Stalingrad and hope the mud hits before the germans get there.

You don't have to go that far. From Kharkov southwards you can figure out where the "Mud line" is; where he will 100+ Mps from a railhead and therefore be isolated and vulnerable to surrender if attacked during mud turns. Usually the line is about 3-4 hexes east of the Kharkov-Stalino line.

I doubt he can do many more HQ build-ups south of Bryansk, and everything east of the Dnepr will be short on supply.

Also the Crimea will be a potential thorn in his side - use it for what it was - an airbase to bomb Ploesti into the stone age.

Also those spaced out divisions he is using on his flanks will allow you to slip cavalry and tank brigades into his rear to displace HQs and Airbases.

[Arstavidios]

That's for the future.
So far my industry is getting mauled, and Im trying to save whatever I can. That's only early august.
I hope to evacuate enough industry to remain above 200 armament. and some heavy industry too.

basically every factory on a line leningrad Moscow rostov is at risk by mid august and chances are you'll most probably lose all that by mud, if your opponent uses HQ build ups.

so the only point that matters is how many factories, and how many troops you manage to get out of there. the only thing you can do is buy some time to evacuate as many factories as possible and run where there are no factories ar risk..

With the loss of  leningrad Moscow kharkov rostov, your mapower is going to be hit hard. in addition to the the loss of the armament factories so you have to preserve your army as much as possible.

I should have adapted a few tuns earlier. I could have saved a few more factories and saved some troops.

i got some success on his flankig divisios, and on his spearheads but the result is merely to present the germans with more targets to hit and all the troops are badly needed to cover the factories anyway.

After one months ond a half of campaign is spearheads are between two and three months in advance of schedule . the troops i send to slow him down are just gobled. and there are so many factories at risk i cannot affor to redeploy troops by rail.

IMO the least bad solution for the soviets is just to concentrate everything on evacuating and forget anything else; You'll lose everything from leningrad moscow to rostov anyway so , so You'd better try to save as much as you can so You may be abe to lauch a wibter offensive, and may have a chance to survive into 42.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios
IMO the least bad solution for the soviets is just to concentrate everything on evacuating and forget anything else; You'll lose everything from leningrad moscow to rostov anyway so , so You'd better try to save as much as you can so You may be abe to lauch a wibter offensive, and may have a chance to survive into 42.

I think you're being a bit pessamistic...while I think it could be tough to save Lgrad, Moscow, and Rostov, I hardly think that all of them are doomed. I also think that pinning too many hopes on a blizzard offensive with the current patches is a mistake--best you can do is bloody the Germans a bit, and it gives you a few months to rebuild your forces, but you can't expect miracles.

[Arstavidios]

Turn 9 two of the cities of the stalino group have been overrun.
I also lost the Southern leningrad city hex with all it's factories.
I'm retreating my forces on the Dnepr to avoid having them all pocked. Western front is also withdrawing back towards moscow.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios
IMO the least bad solution for the soviets is just to concentrate everything on evacuating and forget anything else; You'll lose everything from leningrad moscow to rostov anyway so , so You'd better try to save as much as you can so You may be abe to lauch a wibter offensive, and may have a chance to survive into 42.

Now you are sounding a bit defeatist. You have just had a beating by one of the best German players. I can understand that you feel somewhat demoralized, but that does not mean that the Soviets don't stand a chance.

[Arstavidios]

Getting a beating by skilled player, and i'm certainly getting a good one is one thing But IMO that's not the issue here.

You just have to realize that in 1941 against a skilled german player, and Pelton certainly is one you're most likely going to lose everything from leningrad, moscow to rostov, and lose it very fast. IMO there's not much you can do about it, So you'd better adapt and act in consequence if you want to stay in the game.


just have a look at what you're doing against Q ball. Rinse an repeat but you're likely to get similar results over and over again.

Of course I'd be interested to see a successful defense by a soviet player against that kind of soviet offensive to get some ideas about how to do it.[:D]

[Flaviusx]

Q-ball made a number of critical errors that can be corrected. Not a game balance issue. I suspect you did as well.

Pelton is a good player, but I think I have pretty good idea of how to shut down his playstyle.

[hfarrish]

...which hopefully we will see soon in an AAR, right?

[Arstavidios]

I'd be happy to hear your ideas any suggestion would be welcome.
I tried to slow down the panzer spearheads but my troops got vaporized
i had reinforced leningrad heavily and did some sucessful couterattacks there, but that just did not help, they just got there and burst through my defenses and fortifications to the city itself .

Panzers can go extremely fast with HQ build up and every factory from leningrand to moscow to rostov is at risk by mid august. I cut off some mobile divisions several times, successfully counterattacked many times, routed a few german motorized units in the process. Yet by mid august the Germans have burst through my defenses taken stalino an dnepropetrovsk and leningrad with their industry, and are coming within reach of moscow.

You just do not have the troops nor the rail capacity to seriously cover or evacuate your industry. so far trying to fight has proved rather ineffective with the loss of many troops and also many factories. focusing mainly on factory evacuation and fighting only when necessary to get time to save as many factories as possible might get better results as you may save a few more factories and preserve your armies so that  you will compensate for the loss of the cities. [8|]

any ideas to do better would be welcome.

So far my assesment of the situation is that in 41 the Germans will more or less take everything from leningrad to Moscow to rostov. The question being, how long it will take him to do that, and how much you will lose or manage to evacuate in the process.

So If somone could show me the some light in the darkness i'd be most grateful

[Flaviusx]

I'm available whenever he is.

[Flaviusx]

Arsta, my observation is that Pelton's flank security isn't amazing. The way to stop him is to take advantage of that with raids, and demolish his rickety logistical underpinnings. I would take every cavalry division I've got, place them in good spots, and plunge as far in the rear as I can go with them, without worrying about their supply lines, and make him chase them down. Pay close attention to his rail lines and march distances to same. It's a mathematical certainty where he needs to be in order to spam HQ buildups.

As far as factories go, let the little ones burn. Mogilev, Gomel, Kiev, Odessa, and the like, just ignore 'em. Keep railing stuff forward. Evacuate major centers only, probably starting with Leningrad. Get out the plane, vehicle and tank factories first. Only spend enough rail to get out half the plane and tank factories in any given location; they will rebuild. After that, armaments, and after that heavy industry.

Above all, keep the reinforcements flowing. And hug the German.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios

Of course I'd be interested to see a successful defense by a soviet player against that kind of soviet offensive to get some ideas about how to do it.[:D]

Not trying to sound douchy here, but since you ask, you could start with my AARs. Se signature, plus here is one more I didn't have room for in the sig.

tm.asp?m=2795466

[Arstavidios]

Well the point is how you to deal with those concentrated deep thrusts on your industry backed by massive use of HQ build up...... You need to adapt to adapt your defensive tactics to this kind of approach.
Anyway I have a few ideas.

Gross deutscland was routed many turns ago so there is some hope, and it is going to be a long war anyway

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Above all, keep the reinforcements flowing. And hug the German.

I really think this is the biggest lesson you should learn from this one, Arsta. Your best defense is a strong one in front of wherever the panzers are. Pile them up high and deep right up next to every panzer you can find. Everywhere else can just be screening units.

[Flaviusx]

Yeah, you don't need to be super strong everywhere, it's fairly clear where his panzer concentrations are, so concentrate against those. He's screening fairly substantial parts of the front.

He may chose to shift direction if you do this and hit you on a previously screened part of the front, but that's going to cost him time and energy and possibly leave him out of position to do a buildup. It's very predictable where these can happen based on his rail lines; if you can channel his advance to a supply vacuum where the railheads are too far away to support a buildup he's going to slow down markedly.

And I really think you need to go medieval with you cavalry units and send them past his thin screens. These little babies are incredibly mobile. Many months ago in a playtest I was able to get a half dozen of them behind AGC via the northern edge of the Pripyet marshes and wreck the rail lines a good 20 hexes behind the Axis front line. That's what happens with lax flank security. Andy has done some crazy stuff with the cav as well. You need to make him react to your moves and not just passively receive his offensives. Chasing down cavalry with widely spread out infantry screens is a losing proposition for the Axis.

[Arstavidios]

Problem is the pace of advance.
As for evacuation of tank factories only a couple were evacuated in each. As you say they will rebuild and you usually end up with more tanks than you can use anyway.

As for armament and heavy inindustry, Dnepropetrovsk, the Stalino group, Leningrad ans several minor factories, are total losses.

Pelton's strategy is 100% committed to making deep thrusts against factories massively using HQ build ups. Basically he goes for a sudden death strategy.

I've had some success against his flanks but it's been pretty ineffectual so far. However many of his divisions have been retreated and CVs are low giving me some opportunities for counterattacks. I've used my cavalry and whatever I could to cut off his spearheads. I've been succesfull several times, but it had no real significant effect, and this has cost me several divisions and some troops.

Moreover with the depth of his penetrations I have to retreat or face the risk of having the bulk of my best divisions cut off.

However this approoach leaves some interesting possibilities for the soviet but you need some creative thinking, and you have to optimize each rail move.

The problem is whether or not I'll be able to evacuate enough factories to remain in the game, which is going to be the focus of the next 3 or 4 turns......

[Flaviusx]

Yes, unfortunately, much of what I'm advocating has to be done in a fresh game (the factory evacuation in particular has to be planned out in advance, with Leningrad being the first place to get evacuations starting on turn 3.)

[Mynok]

Chasing down cavalry with widely spread out infantry screens is a losing proposition for the Axis.

I know I hate it when it happens to me.

[Mynok]

Rather than thinking of cutting of spearheads so much, think rather of getting mobile cav units into his deep backfield and cutting his rail lines back there. Waaaaay in the back. The only thing he has that can catch and kill cav are his panzers and mot divs. You can keep your cav running about back there for quite a while unless he brings some back to take care of it.

The more I think about that happening, the less I like the sound of it as an Axis player. Man, that would be a royal pain. Cutting that rail line is no different than cutting the supply line closer to the front.