Hmm, it might be an outlier but must it be true that only "average" games are found to be interesting? Personally I find it more interesting to see someone play a good game which might upset the apple cart a bit rather than just do the same old thing that 50 other AARs have already done.
Speaking for myself, I find this an eye opener and I am learning much about what can happen to a Japanese player thrown off early and the consequences of poor planning and inability to recover quickly. I don't think the game isn't interesting, anyone who isn't following along is missing out on CR's performance, which indeed is breaking from many of the games out there. I think the problem is Chez isn't reacting how we'd like him to [:D]. I'm the first to admit my game play has much room for improvement, but I can't help being frustrated watching Chez continue to take jab after jab needlessly leading to what may be a knockout blow very soon.
I think it comes down to everybody liking to see a hotly contested matchup that could go the full 15 rounds, a quicker end is great too if it was touch and go at some point. This has the potential of being a round 1 or 2 knockout that was never in doubt.
Luck is the residue of design - John Milton
Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
I don't believe BBs can park in Rangoon. It is a river port.
This really showcases the "first" Rule of WITP. You don't engage in a major operation unless you are absolutely sure as to where the enemy carriers are located. This rule applies to either side. And, if you don't know where they are then any operation has to be covered by your own carriers. This is AE 101. It should be printed on the box right next to the system requirements.....[:-]
So, a player could prevent you from ever engaging in any major operation merely by parking his carriers in a rear-area base where they can't be spotted? According to your post above, you would have no idea as to where they are so you would not undertake any offensive operations?
Not wanting to be too argumentative... but the first part of your statement seems to be not so well thought out, IMO.
I am in general agreement with the second half of your above statement - with the exception being places where I can undertake offensive operations under the cover of LBA.
Nope, I think you misread my intent. I do conduct major operations without knowing where the enemy carriers are. However, without any knowledge to the contrary, I always assume that any operation that I am conducting will be met by enemy carriers. So if I am conduction a major operation and don't know where KB is, you can be pretty much be assured that I am going to cover the operation with my own carriers. This being war, there are of course exceptions to every rule...[;)]
I had in my game deliberately passed up a chance to nail a major SCTF in the very same location that Canoerebel just pulled off his feat because I could not be sure that KB was not in the vicinity. I hated to do it because I had them cold and was 80% sure that KB was not nearby. But being scen #2 and in early 1942, I just decided I could not risk the carriers. Never gamble more than you can afford to lose.
I've just sent the turn file after moderating my carrier orders just a bit. Formidable and Lex will steam to the west side of Andaman Island (just west of Port Blair).
Ent, York, Hermes and Indomitable steam due east a few hexes rather than southeast, thus keeping a bit more distance from Georgietown.
Both changes should keep the carriers in range of tagets taking the most likely vectors or retreat, or in the event Steve pushes on to Port Blair.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Saratoga is ready at Colombo, but the DDs won't be until tomorrow. So Sara can steam tomorrow. She's at least three days away from the battlefield, so she's likely to miss all the action (unless the KB comes hunting).
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Ah I see the divergence in motivations. I understand the enjoyment of a closely contested conflict but, for me, the primary enjoyment comes from seeing someone doing something well. In boxing two punchers can stand 3 feet apart with no art just hitting eachother in the head and chest. There's no art but it would be closely contested. I, personally, wouldn't find that even the slightest bit interesting.
The ideal would be two highly skilled players both playing exceptionally against eachother but if I had to choose I'd rather have 1 player playing very well and outdoing the other than have both of them playing to a lowish standard.
With that said though I must caution, yet again, that I think people are being far too harsh on Chez Da Jez. Whenever ANYONE gets into your OODA loop the end result is that you make inappropriate decisions and embark on inappropriate operations. That makes you look like a poor player when, in effect, all that has happened is that you've lost the OODA battle and are paying the consequence for that. I don't think Chez is anywhere near as poor a player as he appears here. He is just paying the price for losing the OODA battle. Anyone else who loses the same battle would face the same situation - in which they began conducting less and less appropriate operations.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
At the risk of hijacking your thread CR I'll just respond and then get back to enjoying your game. [:)]
ORIGINAL: Nemo121
SqzMyLemon,
Ah I see the divergence in motivations. I understand the enjoyment of a closely contested conflict but, for me, the primary enjoyment comes from seeing someone doing something well. In boxing two punchers can stand 3 feet apart with no art just hitting eachother in the head and chest. There's no art but it would be closely contested. I, personally, wouldn't find that even the slightest bit interesting.
Boxing can be highly artful and contested by two skilled opponents who adapt and counter during the course of a fight, or a football team getting clobbered by half-time and makes adjustments to come back and be competive the remainder of the game. I'm just wishing for Chez to start countering effectively.
The ideal would be two highly skilled players both playing exceptionally against eachother but if I had to choose I'd rather have 1 player playing very well and outdoing the other than have both of them playing to a lowish standard.
I completely agree!
With that said though I must caution, yet again, that I think people are being far too harsh on Chez Da Jez. Whenever ANYONE gets into your OODA loop the end result is that you make inappropriate decisions and embark on inappropriate operations. That makes you look like a poor player when, in effect, all that has happened is that you've lost the OODA battle and are paying the consequence for that. I don't think Chez is anywhere near as poor a player as he appears here. He is just paying the price for losing the OODA battle. Anyone else who loses the same battle would face the same situation - in which they began conducting less and less appropriate operations.
If my comments have seemed harsh, that's certainly not the spirit they are meant to imply. It's probably the JFB in me that's simply frustrated with seeing him really struggle so early. I certainly am not an experienced player yet, which I point out whenever I can. I've even admitted in this particular case I'd probably be doing no better than Chez himself. I won't pretend to know what it feels like to have my OODA loop violated [X(] [:-]. I certainly don't think Chez is a bad player, but I do agree he is making poor decisions and if they are a result of what you have suggested, I'll certainly temper my comments to take that into consideration. That won't stop me wishing he'd hand CR's butt to him on a platter occasionally and soon though! [:D]
Luck is the residue of design - John Milton
Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
Having your OODA loop violated can hurt... or so I'm told. I've heard various "jellies" can help but haven't, personally, tested this out. Perhaps someone more in the know could enlighten us?
On a serious note: I don't think you were trying to be excessively harsh. I just think you ( and others ) mightn't have been taking into account the huge impact of the OODA loop. As to him handing CR his butt ( gees, its like you're fixated or something [:D] ). Sadly, no. Unless Canoerebel badly messes up now we will see a spiral of worsening orientation mixing with emotionality resulting in even poorer decisions.
Once failures occur they tend to cascade. The solution to this lies in what Joffre did in 1914 - but which very few have the force of character to do.
Moltke the German commander in chief was so anxious prior to the outbreak of war that to assuage his anxiety he transferred multiple divisions and corps into non-essential regions, weakening the crucial right wing of the Schlieffen plan. This was a clear mark that his anxiety would interfere with the Prussian ideal of unemotional, rational decision-making... and so it proved. When war did come he was so concerned that he'd miss something that he told his staff to wake him if they needed him. The end result was that he was often awoken during the night or very early after insufficient sleep, became sleep-deprived and made poor decisions before suffering a mental and physical breakdown in October 1914. Joffre ( the head of the French Army ), on the other hand, ordered his staff not to wake him during the night or too early and had mandated time off during the day to go walking around his garden admiring the roses ( literally ). Joffre prevented himself from getting mentally exhausted and this played a major part in preserving his attention/concentration and health such that he was able to make the right decisions at the right times.
In my current game my opponent has reached a situation where he realises that what he WAS doing was not appropriate. He has thus taken a break from play ( we've now been paused for about a week ) and he is taking his time to re-examine the entire situation from first principles. In short he is, within the game construct, taking the time he requires to re-orient his OODA loop and make better decisions going forward. I, personally, believe this was the right decision for him to make... even while I chafe ( and I use the term advisedly [8D]) to continue with the game. Chez needs to do something similar - take time out and re-evaluate everything without preconceptions. I doubt he will though as that's a very difficult thing to make oneself do. It is what he should do though, IMO.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Having your OODA loop violated can hurt... or so I'm told. I've heard various "jellies" can help but haven't, personally, tested this out. Perhaps someone more in the know could enlighten us?
On a serious note: I don't think you were trying to be excessively harsh. I just think you ( and others ) mightn't have been taking into account the huge impact of the OODA loop. As to him handing CR his butt ( gees, its like you're fixated or something [:D] ). Sadly, no. Unless Canoerebel badly messes up now we will see a spiral of worsening orientation mixing with emotionality resulting in even poorer decisions.
Once failures occur they tend to cascade. The solution to this lies in what Joffre did in 1914 - but which very few have the force of character to do.
Moltke the German commander in chief was so anxious prior to the outbreak of war that to assuage his anxiety he transferred multiple divisions and corps into non-essential regions, weakening the crucial right wing of the Schlieffen plan. This was a clear mark that his anxiety would interfere with the Prussian ideal of unemotional, rational decision-making... and so it proved. When war did come he was so concerned that he'd miss something that he told his staff to wake him if they needed him. The end result was that he was often awoken during the night or very early after insufficient sleep, became sleep-deprived and made poor decisions before suffering a mental and physical breakdown in October 1914. Joffre ( the head of the French Army ), on the other hand, ordered his staff not to wake him during the night or too early and had mandated time off during the day to go walking around his garden admiring the roses ( literally ). Joffre prevented himself from getting mentally exhausted and this played a major part in preserving his attention/concentration and health such that he was able to make the right decisions at the right times.
In my current game my opponent has reached a situation where he realises that what he WAS doing was not appropriate. He has thus taken a break from play ( we've now been paused for about a week ) and he is taking his time to re-examine the entire situation from first principles. In short he is, within the game construct, taking the time he requires to re-orient his OODA loop and make better decisions going forward. I, personally, believe this was the right decision for him to make... even while I chafe ( and I use the term advisedly [8D]) to continue with the game. Chez needs to do something similar - take time out and re-evaluate everything without preconceptions. I doubt he will though as that's a very difficult thing to make oneself do. It is what he should do though, IMO.
Yep I like to turn about a turn or two a day. But after a nasty blow, I will take a day or two off. Not often but just to get my head back in the game again.
It's a decision making cycle. We all do it to some extent, in our game play.
Observation
You gather infor (intel) on your opponent. IE personality, cultural background, forces he/she have etc
Orient
Take all the information (intel) you have on your opponent, put it all together and try to see his/her plan.
Decide
Start making your plans (A,B,C)
Act
Put the plan you made into action.
Whent the next turn comes around you will do this all over again. OODA Loop. If you can disrupt your opponents loop (as CR has) mistakes happen. I am no master at this Nemo and other's can prob tell you better or correct me if I am wrong on this
Doc
Sorry for the hijack CR. Love the AAR and learning much from you guys.
4/14/42
Quick report due to time constraints.
Surface Combat: CA Furutaka led a furious charge against BB Ramilles and another RN BB, putting two torps in Ramilles (which suffered moderate float damage). Furutaka took some damage as did a DD. CA Portland TF engaged the Furutaka group, finishing the DD. The the Portland group mixed it up with a big IJ amphibious TF retiring towards Victoria Point, sinking a bunch of transports and probably an escorting CL and two DD.
Air Combat: Japanese air didn't sortie, except for meager LRCAP from Georgetown. The only Allied carriers in action were Lex and Ent, which applied the coup-de-grace to Ise and Haruna (confirmed sunk), heavily damaged CA Kako, and damaged or sank a large number of transports. Formidable was too far to launch strikes, and somehow Indomitable and Hermes retired towards Colombo (don't know the cause of that snafu, but it turns out fine).
Alied Carriers: Ent and York will retire to Colombo to replenish. Formidable, Indomitable, Hermes, Lexington and Saratoga will rendezvous between Colombo and Sabang to handle patrol duty south of Sumatra until Ent and York can rejoin, which should be in a week.
IJN Carriers: It appears that the KB Division is retiring to the east (!) as it was sighted near Kuching, Borneo. So it's going to steam around the northern cape of Borneo for the second time in five days?
Cripples: I don't know what became of Kongo, which took one torp yesterday. It apparently made good its escape towards Singapore. The remaining IJ damaged ships are too close to Georgetown to go after now.
In the Air: The B-17s hit the airfield at Georgetown, destroying seven aircraft.
What's Next: Pending arrival of 27th USA Div. in a few weeks, the Allies will resume what they were doing - carriers and combat TFs near Sumatra to handle opportunities or emergencies; more troops and supplies to Sumatra. I'm still debating whether to use the Brit brigade to reinforce Port Blair. I doubt the enemy toys with this base again any time soon.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
After the latest defeat, I am convinced that Japan will never fully engage the Palembang fortress, much less defeat it. While I agree with CR that it is inappropriate for him to offer an olive branch or suggest a cease-fire, I would not be at all surprised to see Chez do that in the near term.
This has been a remarkable lesson in how to defeat Japan by someone other than Nemo or the other "old hands" at this game. It is also a testimony to rationally aggressive early Allied play. Given the normal full Sir Robin that characterizes usual early Allied play, this is most refreshing. Sure, it will not always turn out so positive for the Allies, but this was really smart play aided and abetted by sometimes careless Japanese play. Excellent.
One of my favorite AARs of all time.
Yeah, yeah, I know, it isn't over. Chez may still pull this one out and all.....but get real....not likely.
Steve's a soldier, so morale comes into play; but I think he'll continue on as long as the KB is intact or unless a massive IJ landing at Sumatra fails. Either of those two events would be so calamitous at this point that anyone would be likely to consider pulling the plug at that point.
So, Steve will come for Sumatra, though I'm not yet sure whether it will be before or after he attends to the Kuriles.
Japan has to get some damaged capital ships (Kongo, Furutaka, possibly Kako) to the yards, which includes steaming through the Straits of Malacca, on past Singapore, and then up to Manila or Hong Kong. I don't think Steve will do anything else in the region until he gathers his surviving ships and gets them to safety. So at a minimum the Allies have a couple of weeks before Japan can re-orient and get something new underway. Probably more like four to six weeks. At the same time, the commitment of the Allied carriers will free Japan to move in other areas, so perhaps a move on Oz, Port Moresby or more quickly in the Kuriles will take place.
No question the Battle of the Andaman Sea translates into better odds for the Allies when the invasion of Sumatra gets underway. Subtacting Haruna and Ise (sunk), Kako (badly damaged), Kongo (moderately damaged) and Furtake (lightly damaged) at a cost of BB Ramilles (moderately damaged) means committing Alied combat ships to meet an invasion force at the beachhead will be that much more effective.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Looking at this situation makes me contemplate a number of things.
First, the fact that AE is a game does not nullify the strategic truths the Japanese faced in RL. If the Japan player looks at what is at his disposal on 7 Dec 1941 and thinks "I can do whatever I want because my forces are so superior to what I am facing that the best the Allies can do is put a few speed bumps in my path" then he is setting himself up for failure. The failure of the Japanese high command in WWII was more underestimating Allied resolve than it was underestimating Allied capabilities. They knew they had precious little time to capture those areas that were of prime strategic importance before the Allies could organize a defense. We talk of "Victory Disease" and that was a reality as far as the Japanese psyche. However, the success of the Centrifugal Offensive also led to Japan's flailing about in mid/late 1942. The plan was to take what Japan needed and defeat the Allies in the "Decisive Battle" at some point doing those operations. The theory was the Allies would then sue for peace with Japan being able to retain it's conquests as part of the negotiated truce. When the SRA was fully conquered by April 1942 without the decisive battle, Imperial HQ became embroiled in a series of debates as to what to do next. The point being that Japan was not interested in conquering places like New Caledonia, Samoa, and Fiji until the SRA was in it's hands. Time and again we see JFB conquering far flung places while neglecting the areas it really needs to sustain a war effort. While that may provide for some early war fun and even a little bit of "gotcha" gameyness, it really doesn't make for a very good long term game. So here we reach the point where Chez should be finishing up the SRA operations and he has barely begun. Instead we have the IJN rampaging about the Pacific taking places that are strategically non-vital
Second, the fact that many players have discovered in that the Allies are far from toothless even early in the war. In RL there were plans and attempts to reinforce the DEI. The reason they did not succeed is that the Japanese advance was more rapid than the Allies' ability to get the units in place. The provisional FS and BS that arrive in Australia at this point were ear marked for the defense of Java. The problem was that Java had fallen before the units could get into position to intervene (and the USS Langley went down with literally a boat load of P-40's on board). Point being that there was not an attitude that the Allies would just give up the DEI without a fight (i.e., no "Brave Sir Robin"). So if the Allies are given the opportunity to consolidate their positions, they can make Japan pay a heavy price for the SRA. In my 2x2 game with Nomad, we lost all of the Solomons, the New Hebrides, New Caledonia, Fiji, the Tonga Islands, and Samoa by Late April 1942, but we held all of Java and southern Sumatra. We were actually in better shape in Sumatra than Dan is here (1100 AS behind level 5 forts at Palembang). Here's the rub: we didn't contest the eastern Pacific conquests at all. We pulled all the war back to French Polynesia. End result, game over in May 1942 due to multiple Japan player withdraws. Take home message is that Japan cannot afford to let the Allies concentrate force around an objective it really needs to survive.
Nemo has pointed out that sometimes the most effective decision a player can make is to refuse battle. No point in fighting and potentially losing a major engagement over a piece of real estate that has no value to you. Dan has proven here that while CD has taken a "vast" empire in the SoPac, it is irrelevant because there is no oil in Samoa, Fiji et al. Conversely if CD had acted decisively and taken the SRA quickly with overwhelming force, Dan would be sweating now as to where he needed to draw the line in the sand as far as Oz vs India vs SoPac. Japan has precious little time to accomplish its goals. If the Allies can slow the advance down just a little, Japan is in trouble.
"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry
Here's an email from Chez that explains what led to his decision to invade Port Blair. As we suspected, he thought the carriers were still around Oz. He was also getting reports of carriers at Oosthaven (odd as none have been there or even close). I think this will help readers better understand what's influencing his decisions:
My land-based air search absolutely sucks. I seldom detect your ships at sea. I see them inport but that's about it. The Mavis units are particularly bad at this and it doesn't matter where on they map they are... whether in the Aleutians, the Kuriles, Malaya... they simply don't spot ships at sea. Sea-based air search doesn't seem to have that problem though. I have the same issue in Brad's game.
Recon is little better. They consistently report BBs at Palembang and are still reporting multiple CVs at Oosthaven.
That was an expensive non-operation. I believed your carriers were in Australian waters so I didn't wait for KB to finish repairs. Smash and grab Pt Blair while the coast was clear. Stupid, stupid operational error that overlooked the primary dictum.... air cover!
Of course it would help if my air cover would do what I want when I want! Multiple HQs and bombers and fighters assigned to them, plenty of supply and still they can't coordinate a raid.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Yep. Every single turn early on in the game I think: "I've got to get to X by Feb 15 and Y by March 1 in order to take Z by March 31." I'm actually looking forward to going over to the defensive just so I don't feel so rushed. [:D]
[:D]
