How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds?

[HintJ]

This is a major complaint, that comes up over and over. It also came up w/PCK.

Look at the first screenshot, notice the timer:

[HintJ]

And this:

[junk2drive]

If they didn't work, the Soviets wouldn't have had them.

We are changing things in the update.

[HintJ]

I quit the game in disgust. I can understand such a severe result if I actually did something stupid. Game 2 in a random campaign broken. No way to recover from such an outrageous result except cheat.

It ruins the game for me.

Should I just edit the .xmls to make indirect fire so expensive that neither the AI (nor the player) can ever buy such a rediculously over-powered weapon?

[HintJ]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

If they didn't work, the Soviets wouldn't have had them.

We are changing things in the update.

If they worked that well, they should have made nothing but that weapon.

[Mobius]

I don't think rocket artillery scatters enough.

Why is every unit a platoon HQ?

If the soviets are the same way then you certainly helped them aquire artillery support.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: HintJ

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

If they didn't work, the Soviets wouldn't have had them.

We are changing things in the update.

If they worked that well, they should have made nothing but that weapon.

They made a lot of them.

A couple of things concerning Katyusha's. Since I play the Soviet's mostly I have a fondness for Katy as she was known to Soviet forces.

1) Katy was a static weapon. You should never see her in an ME.

2) Katy was an area weapon. If you are in a small area she is at her best. 1km maps or smaller with Katy firing on you will not be pleasant. This is historically accurate.

3) As an area suppression weapon the main result is blast. However, one of the main concerns for tanks were blast weapons. While they wouldn't KILL a tank or the crew with anything other than a direct hit, and possibly not even then, they were very capable of knocking out the vehicle mechanically.

Beware of the rocket artillery on smaller maps. They can be devastating.

This weapons system was so fierce the first time the Soviets used it Soviet units retreated in disorder. I'm pretty sure we can figure out just how well the Germans liked it.

Your scenarios where every squad is an independent platoon HQ gives every squad on the map the ability to call for indirect fire. That's not helping.

What to do to reduce their effects?

First, and foremost, reduce the number of launchers in the game.

Second, reduce their experience level.

Third, keep your forces spread out. I read that German tanks were taught to have 100 meter spacing. That doesn't often happen in wargames.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Erik Rutins]

The first update will help by removing the extra heavy artillery from random campaigns and reducing the prevalence of the medium artillery.

Regards,

- Erik

[ComradeP]

2) Katy was an area weapon. If you are in a small area she is at her best. 1km maps or smaller with Katy firing on you will not be pleasant. This is historically accurate.

What is not historically accurate is the current availability date and the chance of encountering them in 1941 or early 1942. Many of the Rifle companies and battalions I've fought against had a Katyusha battery in support, and for the first year of the war, that's way too much.

What is also not accurate, is their precision. The rockets don't really scatter much at all. They're not an area weapon in the game. Their spread is not too different from that of regular artillery rounds, whilst in reality rockets were far less accurate.

3) As an area suppression weapon the main result is blast. However, one of the main concerns for tanks were blast weapons. While they wouldn't KILL a tank or the crew with anything other than a direct hit, and possibly not even then, they were very capable of knocking out the vehicle mechanically.

With the currently bugged display of where a projectile lands, it's very difficult to determine whether a tank was knocked out by a blast (which is unlikely from a 82mm projectile) or from a hit to the turret (possible). I've yet to see a single instance where a projectile that destroyed one of my tanks actually graphically landed on top of the tank. Usually, the impact is displayed dozens of meters away.

Beware of the rocket artillery on smaller maps. They can be devastating.

In a way, all maps are small, as even a 2x2 map doesn't allow you all that much room for movement. The problem is made worse by the fact that the objectives and thus the AI's unit deployment are more often than not concentrated in a small part of the map, which in turn makes it rather senseless to space out your units: 100 meters between tanks isn't efficient if you're fighting over around 500 meters of the map in width (the approach path to the objectives).

This weapons system was so fierce the first time the Soviets used it Soviet units retreated in disorder. I'm pretty sure we can figure out just how well the Germans liked it.

That's because it's an area suppression weapon, which people fear more than the far more predictable (but also more deadly) artillery shells. You know there'll generally be a pause between artillery shells, even under a heavy barrage, but the volume of fire from a rocket battery (until it has too reload) is much greater.

First, and foremost, reduce the number of launchers in the game.

Making their appearance more historical in terms of when they become available would be a good start.

Second, reduce their experience level.

They're not precision weapons and I don't know if there's a difference for off map units as far as experience levels are concerned. I don't see too much of a difference between a barrage by green 122mm gun crews or veteran 122mm gun crews.

Third, keep your forces spread out. I read that German tanks were taught to have 100 meter spacing. That doesn't often happen in wargames.

That would require better random battle map design, it would require that the AI spreads its forces out too and that objectives are spread out across the entire map.

-

Having said all that, I'd say the whole idea of the Soviets being able to pre-plot artillery/have turn 1 artillery could use tweaking. For instance, it should be removed completely from meeting engagements. Preferably, in defensive battles, it should be limited to the part of the map the AI is defending. Realistically with the defenders usually being an infantry force, they would not know precisely where an attack would be coming from as at least in the case of the Panzer campaigns, the attacker is highly mobile whilst they are not. Pre-plotted artillery when they're attacking is fine.

I'd still be in favour of actually adding forward observers, that would remove quite a few problems with the current "every platoon commander's a spotter" problem.

Also: maybe random battles could use different setups for units in general, casualties can be rather high. My 12 tanks destroyed a Rifle division's worth of Rifle squads fairly quickly.

[dazoline II]

I made them 2x as expensive and moved their initial dates up into 1942 for the larger calbres.

It seems as if the early tanks are very suceptable to rockets as I played many June 22nd 1941 battles and losing 1/2 to 3/4 of my tanks to rockets in the first few rounds.
Now I only lose about 1/4 of my tanks to things like 8 AT guns covering one field. [8D]

ORIGINAL: HintJ

I quit the game in disgust. I can understand such a severe result if I actually did something stupid. Game 2 in a random campaign broken. No way to recover from such an outrageous result except cheat.

It ruins the game for me.

Should I just edit the .xmls to make indirect fire so expensive that neither the AI (nor the player) can ever buy such a rediculously over-powered weapon?

[Mobius]

The 300mm didn't come out on mobile launchers until 1944. The 132mm first used 7/41 while the 82 came out later. Contrary to popular belief they were often mounted on trucks. Trucks being mobile even in the Soviet Union.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRhv9_jHDhk

[Mad Russian]

The preferred system for Katyusha's were truck mounted. That was due to the German ability to do counterbattery fire. They wanted to move them after they fired.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

2) Katy was an area weapon. If you are in a small area she is at her best. 1km maps or smaller with Katy firing on you will not be pleasant. This is historically accurate.

What is not historically accurate is the current availability date and the chance of encountering them in 1941 or early 1942. Many of the Rifle companies and battalions I've fought against had a Katyusha battery in support, and for the first year of the war, that's way too much.

What is also not accurate, is their precision. The rockets don't really scatter much at all. They're not an area weapon in the game. Their spread is not too different from that of regular artillery rounds, whilst in reality rockets were far less accurate.

In the first year of the war Katy wasn't numerous. They should be rare in 1941 and increasing in numbers as the war goes on. They shouldn't really be found in ME's.

3) As an area suppression weapon the main result is blast. However, one of the main concerns for tanks were blast weapons. While they wouldn't KILL a tank or the crew with anything other than a direct hit, and possibly not even then, they were very capable of knocking out the vehicle mechanically.

With the currently bugged display of where a projectile lands, it's very difficult to determine whether a tank was knocked out by a blast (which is unlikely from a 82mm projectile) or from a hit to the turret (possible). I've yet to see a single instance where a projectile that destroyed one of my tanks actually graphically landed on top of the tank. Usually, the impact is displayed dozens of meters away.

Obviously, if the tank is hit the round hit close if not on the vehicle.

First, and foremost, reduce the number of launchers in the game.

Making their appearance more historical in terms of when they become available would be a good start.
[/quote]

I agree.

Having said all that, I'd say the whole idea of the Soviets being able to pre-plot artillery/have turn 1 artillery could use tweaking. For instance, it should be removed completely from meeting engagements.

There was just an entire discussion of Soviet artillery in Meeting Engagements. I think you'll see some changes made.

Preferably, in defensive battles, it should be limited to the part of the map the AI is defending. Realistically with the defenders usually being an infantry force, they would not know precisely where an attack would be coming from as at least in the case of the Panzer campaigns, the attacker is highly mobile whilst they are not. Pre-plotted artillery when they're attacking is fine.

I've not done anything with the Randoms but make a few suggestions about dates of availability and tactics. However, I know that J2D,Rick and Mobius have put quite a bit of time into that part of the game.

I'd still be in favour of actually adding forward observers, that would remove quite a few problems with the current "every platoon commander's a spotter" problem.

That I think you're going to see. There needs to be more of the specialized smaller units represented in the game. One of the major ones missing is a FO unit.

Like you pointed out, a FO unit would fix at least one ailment.

Also: maybe random battles could use different setups for units in general, casualties can be rather high. My 12 tanks destroyed a Rifle division's worth of Rifle squads fairly quickly.

What could be done is wide open. J2D and Rick are the driving force behind Randoms with Mobius also getting involved.

They have been working to improve the Random system from day one and continue to work on it. Keep giving them thoughts and ideas.

Good Hunting.

MR

[bairdlander2]

ORIGINAL: HintJ

And this:

[:D][:D]lol

[ComradeP]

I just experienced the worst Katyusha barrage yet. First, a 82mm barrage by serious numbers of launchers, followed by a 300mm Katyusha barrage, and a regular 76mm barrage. Almost the entire screen was filled with rocket smoke. Thankfully, the game crashed at that point as it couldn't handle the graphical detail it seems so I didn't have to watch what the result was going to be.

Time for yet another Katyusha-related restart of a battle.

[Mad Russian]

One of the things we're looking at is the number of actual rockets that should be impacting on the map. An entire tank corps only had 8 launchers, which still would mean 128 Katyusha rockets of 132mm.

Our research shows the impact area of those rockets would affect 12.5% of a 1km map. That's pretty substantial.

Good Hunting.

MR

[dazoline II]

That reminds me of a Steel Panthers game I played, where I'd buy a "normal" unit composition of units with tanks and infantry etc. And the opposing player wouldd buy like 2 or 3 choppers and everything else on map rocket artillery with one or two ammo dumps. That was the modern one SPIII I think, where Russians would get the launchers with the 10 hex nuke spread.

My first house rule in SP was no more than 1/10 points spent on arty after that.

Funny thing is I keep remembering that when playing random PCO games against the artillery barrages. Of course in PCO the IA also has more tanks and infantry than you do.

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

One of the things we're looking at is the number of actual rockets that should be impacting on the map. An entire tank corps only had 8 launchers.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

Here are some Katyusha facts:

The first large-scale testing of the Katyusha rocket launchers took place at the end of 1938, when 233 rounds of various types were used. A salvo of rockets could completely straddle a target at a range of 5,500 metres (3.4 mi). But the artillery branch was not fond of the Katyusha, because it took up to 50 minutes to load and fire 24 rounds, while a conventional howitzer could fire 95 to 150 rounds in the same time. Testing with various rockets was conducted through 1940, and the BM-13-16 with launch rails for sixteen rockets was authorized for production. Only forty launchers were built before Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941.

Originally known as Guards Mortar Breakthrough units, the rocket forces saw the greatest growth of any component of the Red Army during the war.

The first three batteries were outfitted with BM-13's in June and July 1941. In early August Stavka ordered the formation of eight rocket regiments, each to consist of three battalions, which had 4 three vehicle batteries each.  This goal was exceeded and fourteen regiments were created in September and October, along with nineteen separate battalions.

In January 1942 Stavka ordered the independent battalions consolidated into regiments. While at the same time ordering the formation of twenty more regiments.

In early June 1942 twenty independent battalions were created around the new M-30 rocket. This was a launch system of  300mm rockets using a stationary launch frame.

By the end of August more than seventy M-30 battalions had been activated. In November 1942 the Red Army began organizing and forming 10 heavy brigades using the M-30 rockets and launchers.

In December of 1942 orders were issued to create four rocket divisions. These would consist of four regiments of M-13 and two brigades of M-30 launchers.

By the end of 1943 the Red Army had at it's disposal 7 Katyusha Divisions (20 brigades), 13 independent brigades of M-30's, 96 regiments and 30 battalions of M-13's, as well as 19 regiments and 8 battalions of M-8 launchers.

This force structure remained almost completely unchanged for the duration of the war. The only real change being the upgrading of the M-30 to the improved M-31 which gave the rocket divisions considerably greater firepower and flexibility.

As you can see there was a lot of rocket artillery in the Ost Front. Just not as much before 1942 as later.

Good Hunting.

MR  

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: dazoline II

Of course in PCO the IA also has more tanks and infantry than you do.

If you're playing as the Germans the Soviets should in all but the rarest of engagements have more of everything than you do.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Jacko]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

If they didn't work, the Soviets wouldn't have had them.

We are changing things in the update.

In other words, yes, it needs adjusting, because at the moment the impact of the Katyushas is just silly.