Giving the AI some life

[Data]

I will abstain....barely [:)]

[gijas17]

I think Sins of a Solar Empire has really good AI especially in the entrenchment and diplomacy expansions even though it's not what I consider a true 4x game. I owned SR 2 back when but sold it. I might have to check out SR reboot though. I have SOTS and all the expansions. Its a really good game though I wish the planet sieges were more involved the AI is sometimes to aggresive. Im really looking forward to SOTS 2... anyone know when that's due out? Armada 2526 has some challenging AI but needs work like with game with handling diplomacy issues. Hopefully Supernova will fix some AI issues next week.

[J HG T]

Have to agree with gijas. Sins with all the expansions has quite good AI. Especially in hard and up. Normal's challenging and fun but not "hard".
The only problem I have with Sins AI is that enemy AI ships won't use some of their special powers at all. This puts AI to disadvantage in certain situations. Especially Advent have many abilities that are extremely powerful when used together, and AI seem to ignore this. 

[Shark7]

I think that one of the best ways to improve the AI would be to let players design the blueprints for the AI ships. Players make far more powerful ships than the standard AI fair. I know pirates 'copy' player designs, so the AI should either be able to do this, or at the very least place a stand alone editor and a readable file for the game so that players can design and save the blueprints with the AI modifying as needed.

Example:

I design an escort base design with 4 laser, 2 shields, 8 engines, and electronics for the AI to use. The AI interprets this as

4 x (most current beam weapon)
2 x (most current shield)
8 x (most current engine)
1 x (ECM)
1 x (targeting)
1 x (damage control/repair)

so the AI gets a design similar to my own escorts, but uses its own best components.

The nice thing about designing the blueprints is that you could have a file to customize designs for each race and 'tonnage' level, giving a whole lot of diversity between the different races. Also simply making it a stand alone designer with a readable output file means that we could share design blueprints among the community, other than having to edit every single one ourselves. [;)]

For instance, I might design the Shakturi shipset while someone else designs a Human shipset and we trade files.

[J HG T]

We concur. Some kind of editor in the main menu which you could use to desing ships for each race. You could, for example, design and save several different destroyer models for humans. In the next game human AI would pick one of those desings in random and use (and retrofit) that desing for the duration of that game.
Great idea Shark7!

[MartialDoctor]

The AI in any RTS is going to be fairly lackluster simply due to the fact that AI in RTSes aren't as good as human players.  If a decent AI can be made, then it's possible, based on the design of DW, to make a challenging game for most skill levels.  Although, I will also add that I think a difficultly level (i.e. give enemy races bonuses to trade, taxes, etc.) would be a nice addition as well.

Shark may be on to something that the AIs need to make better ship designs.  But, in terms of making the AI more challenging, I think the main thing would just be to make them less suicidal - i.e. not get into multiple wars.  Even if the AI made better ship designs, it still suffers greatly from this part.

And this is going a bit more off topic than I was hoping (I wanted it to be more about being lifelike, not challenging) but any chat about the AI is a good thing [:)]

[Igard]

I feel that the information is there for Elliot to use as  a guideline for improving the AI.

Interestingly, what you said there, MartialDoctor, seems very simple to me.

Make the AI empires pay more attention to their current war weariness, therefore reducing the suicidal wars factor.

Designing ships might seem like a big problem, but can't that be tied into the construction size tech level? At the first level construction size, the AI will design ships normally, second level, it'll put on an extra laser, third level, an extra shield etc. In other words, redesign at each new construction tech.

The players would work their way around this, however, by focussing on construction tech research. There must be a way to prevent the player from exploiting this.

I don't know if I'm missing something, but it seems like all the parameters are there. It just needs to be thought out and implemented.

[bertipa]

I usually am in mutual defence pact with almost everybody and in free trade agreement with the rest.
It does not come cheap but is simple to do.

The basic trick is to never ever listen to your advisors, the rest came easy.

In reference to the relation reasons I would really like if they change the "we really want to put our hand on your planets" (or something like that). It is a DIPLOMACY screen! I'm sure that it is possible to find a turn of phrase with the same meaning but a little less gross.

Speaking about the AI proper I would like to feel that the relation score is really a diplomatic stance and that the real action that the AI will take are more linked to his/her plan to win the game than an aritmetic calculus.

Same about going to war against 5 enemy at the same time... strategically it makes absolutely no sense. Same going to war against your worst enemy that it appens to reside on the other side of the galaxy... ok he is an A$$ but who cares?

If emotion takes precedence to strategy that should be clearly linked to some racial (suicidal) traits.

Maybe there should be leaders with their own character like in Civilization. I'm sure that Churchill and Stalin would run their star empire in a vastly different way.

[cookie monster]

Why would you wanna be in a mutual defence pact with everybody. It will only drag you into a war you didnt want.

I MDP with my top trading partner, who I have no interest in fighting, everyone else is free trade.

[cookie monster]

Now look here at the trade I just accepted in my game. I think this goes to show how one mining station with polymer and 2 other goods can be ridiculously over valued. I think all disputed mining stations are overvalued and could be gamed to the players advantage.

The Toadies just blew up a Dhayut colony with a World Destroyer, I'm annoyed they were my next conquest. I invaded a Dhayut colony which was surrounded by 30 out of fuel destroyers (no fuel/no guns), I just dropped off my troops and hyper'd outta the system. I wanna retire all those lovely destroyers at my home world.

I played some of the game at x4 speed following a freighter for intel on trade movements, then a box popped up sayin I had taken over someones colony. It seems that the ships I aquired when I destroyed the Gizureans may have still had the same invasion orders, so they landed their troops on a friendlies colony.

It's a good job I was only testing as you can never get your reputation back when you surprise attack somebody.

[J HG T]

What Cookie monster said. I usually have only one MDP partner who is slightly weaker, or equally powerful as I, and whose empire isn't right next to mine. We don't have issues over territory, we can trade effectively and can still use each others planets for refuelling and such.
The absolutely max of MDPs for me is two empires. More than that just gets too risky, as you always have to backstab somebody to support your other friend.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

It's a good job I was only testing as you can never get your reputation back when you surprise attack somebody.

Go slap some pirates - does wonders for getting your reputation back up. As for the relations with the race specifically, I wouldn't be too worried. Just pay them off. Give them a few mines and such, and they'll be fawning over you in no time.

[bertipa]

I just make MDP with everybody and then I just ignore their plea to go to war(or trade embargoes).
Killing pirates, giving them some money or good trade keep them happy while I'm busy overcolonize them.
If the lost colonies can upgrade to mayor power is on they usually become my protectorate also.

Basically I'm just preparing for the Shakturi arrival. Can't tell you how much I'm unhappy when the game end without them showing up.

[Locarnus]

Since this is the first best thread about AI I found, I ll post here.

I got bored with my empire (because I already got all the 3 super rares, so I trade with everyone and make absurd sums of money, as well as having 4 times the systems of the next best empire).
So since the AI empires are at war (about 5 to 10 war relations at all times), I figured I could check how the AI wages war against the AI, just out of curiosity.
I deployed an explorer with long range scanners and collectors in every disputed system, so that I have nearly complete coverage of the fighting.

Some things I found, that would greatly increase the AI effectiveness at fighting:


1. Concentration of firepower
1a. Attack on worlds
The attacker jumps in with enough ships. But instead of focusing the firepower, often 10 of the 20 ships wander around attacking freighters when the other 10 are already fighting the starbases.
Concentration of fire decreases fire against you...
A group of ships fighting against an equal group wins, if it concetrates its fire and the other one doesnt.

1b. The same logic applies, when defending forces jump in.
Those forces arrive often in small numbers at a time.
It reminds you of this Wing Commander movie. When they jump in one at a time, they face the full armament of the invasion fleet, so they are destroyed having no effect at all for the defender...
Fleets have to be engaged with fleets, not single ships.

2. Strategic raids
Those need to be much more common. The AI should jump in with small detachments (eg 5 ships) and then attack mining stations. If too powerful defenders show up, just retreat instead of being smashed.
If the defence is too strong it should then select another system for the next hunting, or come back with more ships.
Also those raids should commence preferably at different ends of the defenders empire, to spread the forces.

The last point would also give a much needed nerf to far flung empires. If there are 2 empires, one having 10 systems, the other one having 2 close together, with the same econ and military power, the empire with 2 should be much safer than the 10 system empire. This simple logic is only implemented if raids are implemented in the way described above.

That would also hinder the massive expansion which is doable right now.
When this is in the game, far flung empires should be seen as militarily weaker as well, it should reflect in the miliary rating, provoking attacks like a paper tiger.

3. Military rating
Their need to be a better measurement of military rating. Firepower is bad for it.
Military tonnage is not applicable because of the immense tech differences.
As a simple way the military tonnage could be counted, differentiated between mobile and immoblie assets, multiplied with some tech level (based uppon the techs relevant for fighting).
Each design shows this military tech level, it could be a simple number.

So a starting tech frigate has the tech level 1(.)00 (shown as 100, means 1.00 - basic index) and military components adding up to 140 size.
It would thus add 140 to the military rating.

A later frigate has 140 worth of directly military relevant components, but an additional targeting computer (the + 10% thing). Its military tech level should then go up eg to 105 or something like that.
This frigate would add 147 to the military rating.
Better shields are handled in the same way, by increasing the military tech level (eg shield 100 to 120 - increase mil tech level from 105 to 115 or so, that would need some balancing but not too problematic if a number is somewhat off its an easy fix and doesnt cause too much imbalance).

A space port with size 300 military components and tech level 100 is immobile, it would eg only add 100 to the military rating.

Military components on freighters and other installations should also be discounted, depending on their relevance (gas mining stations are very relevant, a lonely shield on a freighter maybe isnt worth as much as another shield on one of those mining stations).


When an invasion fleet is on its way, the AI would calculate a score based on the above, assemble a fleet, then jump in and concentrate its firepower.
And the results would be much different from what its now.
Now I can jump in with 4 ships having 75 firepower each, total 300. And if the AI would answer that with 500 firepower, they would still lose, cause my ships have maybe 3 times their shield strength unaccounted for.

[cookie monster]

I only got 2 and 1/2 months enjoyment out of DWROTS.

The AI seems only to measure your current reputation before declaring war. (I have proof)

Current relations mean nothing.

The fact they were 25,000 military strength and I was 250,000 military strength was not an argument passed into the "Shall we got to War?"" AI logic programming.

The fleets need to behave more like a "flock", staying close together and moving in synch. "Flocking" AI is a well known AI concept.

I have lost fleets to attacking a large space port piecemeal, the destroyers were shredded. The AI didn't understand how much more powerful the LSP was.

The Shakturi turned up and DOW'ed two AI races who were 10 times more powerful.

Instead of the Shakturi being destroyed quickly they somehow managed to not be. VERY POOR!

The AI can't stay up/ahead on research or military strength.

A simple arms/tech race AI is needed.

Diplomacy could be better.

Pirates on the many setting wipe the floor with the AI. Plus you don't even get a warning of their impending attack, unlike a AI empire attacks when you have long range scanners.

They respawn like rabbits, and cant be controlled, without microing the situation.

When I look at what DW ROTS actually does I find a very abstracted game, it has a solid base true, but there's not much finesse or skill involved.

My ultra secret formula for success:-

1. Produce lots of explorers.

2. Micro them to 360 degree exploration around capital.

3. Spam troops.

4. Take over independants.

5. Spam colony techs/rush them.

6. Pick galaxy weakling, trade sanction them to clear freighters.

7. Take over galaxy weakling.

8. Repeat steps 6 & 7.

Now you should have 600 troops most of the Galaxy, millions in the bank and an empire so strong you can do whatever you want.

But whatever you do don't get a bad reputation or the AI empires will DOW you, no matter if you are 10 times stronger than them, their best trading partner and they are millions in debt.[:D]

I admit this is an AI specific thread, the main positive negative feedback thread is here

tm.asp?m=2789050

Which you have probably seen, as it's currently on the main page.

[J HG T]

ORIGINAL: Cookie Monster

One of my "favourite" flaws on AI too. It seriously needs to understand the value of things and not sell half of their empire for some puny mining base, mining minerals that they have great plenty already.

EDIT: Fixed quotes. Sorry Cookie!

[cookie monster]

ORIGINAL: J HG T

One of my "favourite" flaws on AI too. It seriously needs to understand the value of things and not sell half of their empire for some puny mining base, mining minerals that they have great plenty already.

That was a post of mine IIRC, a true classic trade.

Of course I accepted.

Well it would have been rude not to!

Edit:

Notice how the info boxed Pirate has stolen my Escort design.

This was ok, until I turned them into Titan Beam Monsters of 70 Firepower.

The Pirates then Kicked Butt!!