Chinese air units

[el cid again]

The stock AE OB appears to have omitted the International Volunteer Squadron
(which, if present, would have to be in flights with wholly different kinds of equipment)
and the French "squadron" (which is more or less another flight - bigger than the rest
of the IVS - but being French - not yoked to others and not required to use English
or Chinese).

It is VERY hard to know what the exact equipment and location of Chinese air units
was - but it appears that numbers of units are being credited with "modern" US
types long before the planes were even made, never mind shipped, at the start of
the Pacific War as we date it (China of course had been at war for years already).
In particular, numbers of units seem not to have Russian fighters, or Hawk -
and the ROC production programs for Hawk also appear missing (if I have not missed
them somehow). A few units appear later than history with correct upgraded gear,
but -

the real problems with ROC airpower are more technical:

1) Most "squadrons" are credited with tiny numbers of machines, not approaching their
actual strength

2) Chinese base forces are often not only credited with too little ground support (which
MIGHT be correct) - but even when at nominal TO&E - the FORMATION they point at is NOT -
so they will inevitably decline over time. The combination of few effective base forces to
begin with, and ALL of them must be weak in due course, means that ROC units are doome
not to be very effective - even when they get good gear.

Finally, it appears the strongest base force is - as it almost certainly was - at Chunking - but
it has no air units to support. So that city is undefended, and vulnerable to long range unescorted
bombers - quite different from - say - what Japanese writers (see the first book with the title Zero
in English). THEY say it was on such raids they learned that fighter escort was vital. So the start
deployment may be in error - possibly due to some units appearing long after they really existed.

A less important matter is that Chinese squadrons changed groups from time to time, so often
one can find a squadron in the list - but not in the group it is associated with in the historical material
you are reading. I assume it isn't a mistake - that both the data as presented and the data I am reading
are correct - at different times. One could spend the rest of one's life trying to understand all this
OB data to the last decimal point - and my general comment is - the work done was vastly better than
that on the ancestor WITP game was. In many cases, I trust this OB better than what I am reading
that seems to differ from it. Still - in some cases - it appears there are problems - and possibly it was
not understood WHEN certain types actually reached line units in theater? As for the formations
at which base forces point, it is possible that one was copied as a model, and then corrections somehow
failed to take - I do not believe it is deliberate 100 air support squads are to shrink to 30 for example.

[m10bob]

I believe that unit was entirely destroyed prior to 1940..

Here is a credible summation of the CAF, but not real detailed..Some of my personal sources do agree with the actual OOB's listed here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmen ... 80%931945)

My favorite site on the subject:

http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/sino-japanese.htm

For CBI research:

http://warren421.home.comcast.net/~warren421/links.html

[inqistor]

The MAIN issue, I have with Chinese Air, is that there is some I-16 units in northern China, which are based outside any other base range, and they are impossible to tranfer to front [:D]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: inqistor

The MAIN issue, I have with Chinese Air, is that there is some I-16 units in northern China, which are based outside any other base range, and they are impossible to tranfer to front [:D]

I shift my base forces to set up a transfer path.

[wdolson]

I don't recall if you can fly them to a city with a rail line or not, but if they can, you can fly them to the terminus of a rail line with no base force, then transfer the unit by rail to someplace that has a base force.  I've marched a base force to a place within range and flew them out.

Bill

[m10bob]

The Chinese air force was really the product of Gen Chennault well before the AVG,(which never flew any combat missions prior to December 7th,'41).

Chennault came in, kicked most of the "foreigners" out as ineffective price gouging mercenaries and dispersed the Chinese planes so they could no longer be destroyed on the ground.
I have never been happy with the meager air support ground units provided in WITP, nor AE, but with an inability to really get any substantial and credible historical references, AE did the best.
Many of the historical ground support units were civilians, employees of Pan Am and the Chinese Civil Airlines,(which ARE portrayed in the game at the incept.)

Like the last two posters, I also move existing ground crews around just to provide the link, but am sure that IRL, they would have already been there.[8D]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: inqistor

The MAIN issue, I have with Chinese Air, is that there is some I-16 units in northern China, which are based outside any other base range, and they are impossible to tranfer to front [:D]

You can transfer them to a base with no air support. 1) the ready planes fly on the next day, 2) any that became non-ready at that base have a chance of becoming ready even without air support, 3) if there is a real problem the base forces will catch up as harry noted.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I believe that unit was entirely destroyed prior to 1940..

Here is a credible summation of the CAF, but not real detailed..Some of my personal sources do agree with the actual OOB's listed here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmen ... 80%931945)

My favorite site on the subject:

http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/sino-japanese.htm

For CBI research:

http://warren421.home.comcast.net/~warren421/links.html

Thank you very much. These are on topic, germane, and useful comments, and what the Forum is about.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I came across an informal traslation of some Chinese material on the founder of the IVS
- apparently it was also identified as the 14th Squadron - no less than Capt Claire Chennault - commissioned by none less
than Madam Chiang herself! This is, apparently, notes taked from an oral translation done over a phone line! But it is
interesting material:






HOME > TIGERS > CHINESE BIO

A Chinese view of Claire Lee Chennault
[I have been translating a new Japanese history of the air war in Burma with the help of Difei Zhang. She became interested in the Flying Tigers, as did her family in Shanghai, with the result that they produced this biography of Claire Chennault. It's not an exact translation: Difei read aloud from a faxed account, and I took notes from her narration. However, it will give the flavor of what can be regarded as the official Chinese view of the AVG and its founder--the equivalent, say, of an entry in a Chinese encyclopedia. I haven't corrected the account in any way, except to explain some references with a phrase in brackets. -- Dan Ford]
On May 29, 1937, Claire Lee Chennault met Soong Mei-Ling [Madam Chiang Kai-shek], who had studied in Georgia. She wanted Chennault to be her professional consultant, and gave him two T-13 airplanes so he could reconnoiter Chinese airspace. He determined that the Chinese Air Force had a nominal strength of 500 aircraft.

When the Anti-Japanese War began, Chennault volunteered to serve. Chiang Kai-shek accepted the offer and asked him to go to Nanchang to lead the training of Chinese Air Force fighter pilots.

On August 14, 1937, CAF bombers took off and attacked the Japanese fleet at Shanghai. Though the bombers missed their aim, they got a great victory that day. By October, however, most of the Chinese fighting planes had been destroyed, with only 10 or so remaining. Many Chinese pilots had sacrificed their lives in the war.

Chennault managed to hire four French, three American, one Dutch, one German, and six Chinese fighter pilots for the International Fighter Plane Troop [also called the 14th Volunteer Squadron or the International Squadron]. They successfully attacked many Japanese positions and frightened them. In one afternoon, however, the Japanese counter-attacked and destroyed all of the squadron's planes.

On August 1, 1941, Chiang Kai-shek ordered a reformulation of the Chinese Air Force and the ways it could fight. He invited Chennault to participate by creating an American Volunteer Group to help the CAF. He gave Chennault the rank of general [in Chinese service].

Chennault began a professional training program, and after several months the AVG was ready to fight. In November 1941 it was reorganized into three combat squadrons: 1st Squadron Adam & Eves ("Summer Baby"), 2nd Squadron Panda Bears (no panda, but cartoon figures instead), and 3rd Squadron Hell's Angels (with a naked angel's picture on each plane).

On December 7, 1941, Chennault led the 1st and 2nd squadrons to Kunming. On December 20, a group of Japanese planes attacked Yunnan province, and in the Kunming airspace the Chinese Air Force came out to fight and win.

The Japanese had 10 planes, of which 6 were destroyed and 3 were damaged. The AVG was totally saved, and no aircraft was damaged. The victory gave much encouragement to the people of Kunming, who had a big celebration for the AVG. From then on, the local newspapers called them "Flying Tigers."

On December 23, 1941, Chennault took the 3rd Squadron Hell's Angels to Rangoon to help the British fight the Japanese. Over the next several months, the Americans and British fought 31 battles and shot down 217 Japanese planes.

On February 3, 1942, Soong Mei-ling telegraphed Chennault and appointed him vice-general [major general?] of the Chinese Air Force. Chennault before this time was an unknown U.S. Army captain, but now became internationally famous. This was a very dark period in the Pacific War, and Chennault's victories made the American people very happy.

In May 1942 the Japanese invaded Yunnan Province [from Burma]. To prevent a Japanese occupation, Chennault led the AVG to fight the Japanese transportation at Baoshan Tengchong, and Lionlang, preventing the Japanese from going into these cities. The Japanese transportation was bombed by the AVG.

On June 12, Chennault led two squadrons to Guilin. In combat, the AVG shot down 8 Japanese planes while losing only one of its own.

On July 3, Chennault according to U.S. Army order discharged the AVG and formed the 10th U.S. Air Force Group [USAAF 10th Air Force] 23rd Branch [23rd Fighter Squadron].

The American Volunteer Group had fought in China, India, and Burma for more than seven months. Its losses came to 12 planes shot down and 67 destroyed on the ground, meanwhile destroying 297 Japanese aircraft plus 150 planes damaged. In total, the members of the AVG sacrificed 26 of their lives.

[el cid again]

What base? What if you upgrade them to a different plane type before transfer?

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The Chinese air force was really the product of Gen Chennault well before the AVG,(which never flew any combat missions prior to December 7th,'41).

Chennault came in, kicked most of the "foreigners" out as ineffective price gouging mercenaries and dispersed the Chinese planes so they could no longer be destroyed on the ground.
I have never been happy with the meager air support ground units provided in WITP, nor AE, but with an inability to really get any substantial and credible historical references, AE did the best.
Many of the historical ground support units were civilians, employees of Pan Am and the Chinese Civil Airlines,(which ARE portrayed in the game at the incept.)

Like the last two posters, I also move existing ground crews around just to provide the link, but am sure that IRL, they would have already been there.[8D]

See two items above this comment. Apparently then Capt Chennault actually formed the IVS, and apparently a rather small collection of international pilots did go to China early, and "scared the Japanese" - but lost all their machines in the process. According to a Chinese story anyway. That story says Chennault was commissioned to do that by Madam Chiang, and that it was their success that led to his later appointement as Vice Commander of the ROCAF - and being asked to form the AVG.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The Chinese air force was really the product of Gen Chennault well before the AVG,(which never flew any combat missions prior to December 7th,'41).

Chennault came in, kicked most of the "foreigners" out as ineffective price gouging mercenaries and dispersed the Chinese planes so they could no longer be destroyed on the ground.
I have never been happy with the meager air support ground units provided in WITP, nor AE, but with an inability to really get any substantial and credible historical references, AE did the best.
Many of the historical ground support units were civilians, employees of Pan Am and the Chinese Civil Airlines,(which ARE portrayed in the game at the incept.)

Like the last two posters, I also move existing ground crews around just to provide the link, but am sure that IRL, they would have already been there.[8D]

See two items above this comment. Apparently then Capt Chennault actually formed the IVS, and apparently a rather small collection of international pilots did go to China early, and "scared the Japanese" - but lost all their machines in the process. According to a Chinese story anyway. That story says Chennault was commissioned to do that by Madam Chiang, and that it was their success that led to his later appointement as Vice Commander of the ROCAF - and being asked to form the AVG.

IIRC the "International pilots" I refer to were a mix of Italian,Russian, and maybe even German pilots!..They were flying CR 32's, I 16's(early models), and I believe there were also some French in there as well, with Neiuports.

Don't forget these were the same guys who flew the giant TB3's in bombing the Japanese.

[Skyland]

There were less than 6 to 7 french pilots from 1937. Initially in 14th Foreign squadron (Han Keou) then in 41e Chungtui (Kumming). They were supposed to fly the french the Dewoitine 510, purchased by the chinese from 1938. 1 was in AVG (Labussiere) et became a friend of Chennault. I think they all leave China in 1939.

[inqistor]

AHA!
I was tricked again, by EVIL Scenario Designer!
There is base on the SW crossroad, in GC, but there is not even potential base in IRONMAN Scenario.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

What base? What if you upgrade them to a different plane type before transfer?

Well, there are other types of planes there, and they can reach other bases. I-16 have transfer range SIX. I am guessing it is possible to upgrade those units. As soon, as China gets ANY fighters, and you will be able to get 20k supply somehow [:D]

Anyway, I was wondering what happened to all those Russian pilots in China forces. OK, USSR withdraw their units, but was not there some White Russians? They were flying for Manchukuo, so probably should also fly for China.

[m10bob]

I think you have your time frames messed up.Manchuoko was AFTER Manchuria became a Japanese puppet government?

[el cid again]

Manchukuo is also not exactly the same as Manchuria. In game terms, there are also two other regimes in the area
we probably include, but Manchukuo formally included some territory outside Manchuria. Lioning and, I think, Inner
Mongolia are also nominally independent regimes.

Now Manchukuo was very much a creation of a faction of the IJA. But (a) it was NOT a creation of the Japanese
government and (b) it was not exactly a Japanese territory either. The faction also OPPOSED invasion into China
proper - and Manchuria was not really regarded as part of China by many - never mind that Manchurians had
RULED China for a long time. The most interesting aspect of the regime was economic and demographic, but
note that for practical reasons, the bureaucracy was almost entirely Chinese, not Japanese. In fact, numbers of
educated Chinese immigrated to be that bureaucracy - because it was a better deal than available otherwise.
More interesting, immigrants in 7 figures were attracted to Manchukuo FROM China, also similar numbers from
Russia, Korea and Japan. These, mainly, to make money. To harness the engine of economic growth, the
officers designing the "nation" BANNED the major Japanese corporations (zaibatsu). DURING the Great Depression,
"the Miracle of Manchukuo" spawned economic growth in double digits. The are was underpopulated, and had
been subject to the ravages of warlordy for a long time. Soy was introduced, and became a major export,
especially to Japan, which lacked the tillable land for significant agricultural production. The functions of Formosa,
Korea and Manchukuo were, first of all, to feed Japan - and Japanese reluctance to give up Korea and Formosa
in 1945 was because they could not feed themselves otherwise. [Under the US occupation, there was starvation in
Japan - Saburo Sakai's wife died of malnutrition as late as 1948] About the only extensive treatment of this
subject is found by Russian economists - a strange place to read about the virtues of small enterprise capitalism!
But the Russians wanted to understand what happened, and turned academics loose to study it. We, it seems,
have never had much interest - and we already "knew" it was "just" a colony - probably "looted" rather than
soundly managed. About the only place to read about this in detail is in the lesser known of Tsjui's books - there
are only 36 copies in North America - one in the Library of Congress. HE was a fan of the faction that took over
the place, and served there in the late 1930s, participating as a staff officer in a minor dispute with Russia over
the Korean border. [Again, we usually report the Japanese "lost" the dispute. Yet the border today is where the
Japanese said it was, not where the Russians said it was. The Russians left in 1938, returned only when they
invaded Korea, and never claimed the area when they recognized DPRK.] Once again, there is very little Western
study of this almost unknown dispute - far more materials on it in Russian.

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Don't forget these were the same guys who flew the giant TB3's in bombing the Japanese.

This reminded me when my group played IL2. At least one time each weekend we would split the group up and fly 2 of these and "joust" in them. I know its one of those times "you would have to be there" but this pic brought back some fun memories.

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I think you have your time frames messed up.Manchuoko was AFTER Manchuria became a Japanese puppet government?

Well, if you are fighting with one side (Red Russia), you can bet, that other side (White Russians) will come working for you.

Here is one topic, about White Russians in China, with pictures.
Here is another, about their work for Manchukuo.