Defender of the Revolution: Q-Ball v Tarhunnas

[cpt flam]

you can see number of victory/losses on commander report extreme right
for air units from beginning i have a lot in action
actually turn 41 just got my 9th bomber Guard and more than 2 K axis planes as victories
just had to change command of some after majority of SAD disbanded, waiting for more airbases

[vlcz]

ONE OTHER QUESTION FOR THE GALLERY: I know a couple threads are out there on Red Army Airforce Management. I can't find them. Anyone have a link, or a few principles?

http://witewiki.com/index.php?title=Sov ... y_Strategy

[Flaviusx]

No, you're doing the right thing with the cav, exploit their mobility by all means and set up pockets and flanks to dislocate the Germans. Once you bump them out in the open and get them out of forts, then this creates opportunities for hasty attacks with them.

I save the airbone until 1943, and then upgrade them to guards airborne divisions (the guards airborne conversion is 43, not 42.) This maximizes your guards unit count. Note that if you flip them over to guards rifle divisions in 42, those divisions do count against your cap. Better imo to apply that cap to rifle divisions proper. Guards airborne divisions don't have a cap and are limited only by the numbers of brigades available. These are pretty strong divisions, too, compared even to guards rifle divisions. You'll get to the point where virtually all your rifle divisions have been used to form corps, and having a handful of the airborne divisions is nice.

Soviet airpower is centralized. That is to say, ground units will draw support from Front aviation. So you definitely want air HQs attached to Front HQs. The Luftwaffe is more flexible in this regard.

[Q-Ball]

INDUSTRY: Here is another question....should I continue moving industry?

I have some spare rail cap now. I am not being pressed of course, but I could plan ahead.

Anything I move will be disrupted of course, but it will be safe for the long-term. But I hate to disrupt certain production while I still need it. Armaments are stabilizing around 308 Points, which I think is workable, but I can't lose alot more.

Here is a basic rundown of what's left

VORONEZH: I moved 1 of the IL-2 factories already; the HI and ARMAMENTS remain, as well as 1 IL-2 Factory. I am inclined to move the IL-2 before Spring, but I am waiting for the other one to repair a bit first. It is 50% damaged, so it should be at 0% by about mid-March, and expanding again. That might be the right time.

ROSTOV: 9 Armaments Remain

Other than that, I've already moved Lipetsk, Tambov, Voroshilovgrad, so the rest of the South up to Stalingrad is pretty much cleared, other than Rostov and Voronezh.

GORKY and STALINGRAD make very large juicy targets. Moving the industry there, though, would cause severe production disruptions and take several turns. And it would take a big German effort to seriously threaten them.

MUROM, east of Moscow, is a semi-Juicy target, with Vehicles and other production

At this point, I am inclined to ONLY move VORONEZH and maybe ROSTOV, and leave the rest in place, trusting to the Red Army.

If I do that, I will probably keep strategic reserve armies at each city, digging rows of trenches, and garrison them to prevent a Panzer Raid in 1942.

Gorky would be very tough to take; the terrain favors the defender, and he figures to end Winter at least 20-30 hexes away.

Stalingrad is easy terrain, but a long, long way from where he will start 1942, which I expect to be 10-15 hexes back from the Historical 1942 start line.

Pretty tough call; I probably can wait a bit and see how much progress I make in Winter.

[Q-Ball]

T-27: 12/18/41

Why I think I can rout the Wehrmacht:

Check out the screenshots below; this is BEFORE my move. This area is not well covered with Rail, and I am committing 2nd Shock to this area as well. This is the Westernmost BULGE.

I think I'm in good shape here; the forts along the front are breached, leaving weakened units out in the open, including Mobile units.

When a Panzer Corps can't even push a Cav Division, things are getting out of hand for the Wehrmacht.

More to follow at end of turn.

[randallw]

Perhaps the best month to be pushing the Axis is this one; the blizzard attrition effects are supposed to decrease as you move deeper into this winter.  Your opponent probably doesn't have fort levels to 3 or 4 in many places, yet.

[Klydon]

My spin on some of the industrial questions.

Anything you think that may be remotely in danger, you need a move plan for it. You can ill afford to lose any more industry. As to when to move what, anything with ** is a factory that is not yet producing. Move it now. (Example might be the GAZ-AA-37 plant in Tambov, although this is not the best example because they start production 1 Jan 42, but you get the point).

You can easily put off moves now because the Germans are not getting to anything. You can even put it off to a point in the spring, because of the mud situation. Part of the issue is with the reduced rail cap you have, there will come a time where you want a lot of your rail cap available to move reserve armies where you need them to stop any major German offensive, so you won't have enough to be moving industry around either, so you don't want to wait too long.

The time to move a bunch now has passed. (The reason you would consider that is the production multipliers go up in 1942, so the faster you move it, the quicker it will be on line at the higher production rate, rather than waiting for later and missing more time at the higher production rate).

I would look to start getting started in March and move some each turn. Move a balance mix of heavy industry and armaments, not all one or the other. You can take a look at how your production has been going to help determine if you need to move more armaments or heavy industry to balance out what you have (if you have armaments industries sitting idle because you don't have enough heavy industry to run them, you get the point). In this fashion, while you will lose some production each turn, other factories that you have already moved will help make up for it as they are coming back on line.

What I like to try to do with the cav is use it as a pursuit/break through unit. They have no business making attacks to crack lines, but once you blow a unit out and it is fairly beat up, then a cav corps (or two) could get multiple hasty attacks against it and really waste the moral on it (while running up their victory score). This especially works well on Axis minors. One other thing you can do to help your cav divisions out is to run them out with a corps and get some cheap hasty attack victories in a pursuit.

[randallw]

I would be suprised if an Axis player was trying to make hard pushes on cities in the blizzard; any city a few hexes from the Axis right now should be safe until March/April.

[Flaviusx]

Q-ball, don't wait until summer 42 to move the industry. Honestly, get it all out now. It's going to take a while to move this stuff out due to your diminished rail cap. If you have any unspent rail capacity at the end of the turn after moving troops, use it, all of it, to get industry moving east.

Yes, the industry moved will take time to repair and get back up to speed, but the best time to take that hit is during the 41-2 winter. You don't want to deal with a production crunch in the summer. A properly executed evacuation will see everything coming on line by mid 42, with none of it west of the Volga.

[Q-Ball]

Turn 27, 12/18/41:

One more turn of December attacks. I have pushed Tarhunnas out of his initial fort line in just about every place. Some places he has backup forts, like around Moscow, but everywhere else it looks thin. My hope is that I don't lose offensive steam, because the Wehrmacht is getting weaker, losing morale, and having to fight out in the open. Hopefully this counteracts the January bump up for him.

Losses this turn for the Germans were high: Nearly 100,000 battle casualties, including 30,000 POWs. I lost 70,000. The Germans also lost 145 tanks; he is now down to 940 Ready Tanks! While I realize that is a short-term deal, I hope it crimps any Snow Back-hand blow.

I forced 2 German Infantry Divisions and the Slovak Mobile Division to surrender. That last one is key, I think, because it's a useful unit, but unlike the Germans does NOT grow back!

North:

I didn't intend to make a major effort around Vishny Volochek, just cut the Moscow rail line. But the Germans are falling apart up there to the extent that I sent 2 reserve divisions to help exploit it.

A "line" is still together, but the units are weak, and a couple are Regts, not divisions. Mostly I am just pushing West, forcing him to lengthen his line, or withdraw from the Moscow salient.

In front of MOSCOW, it's fairly slow going. I didn't give this region much in reinforcements, just the stuff on hand, but nevertheless they are pushing the Germans back. 3 Germans units are in "Bear Hugs", so he will have to pull them back. At this pace I will probably clear Moscow, though holding it is another matter, and probably not possible in 1942.

Center:

I am going out of my way to attack Panzer Units. Around Tula, 2 Panzer Corps (I think 3rd Panzer Army), had a line of units in front of the town. We successfully forced 5 Panzer Divisions to retreat this turn, one of them twice. Tarhunnas lost 145 tanks this turn. I realize this doesn't matter for the long-haul as they are older, but I am hoping it does matter for early 1942.

What matters more are all the MORALE hits; between sitting in the open, and getting pushed, all his mobile units likely have plummeting morale. I hope to push ALL of them below 75 in Morale, which will put a crimp on 1942 breakouts, and combat ability.

Around KURSK and OREL, we are smashing the German front, to basically disintegrate the forces in front. I showed you a "Before" screenshot, the forces around there are really spent. OREL should fall soon, as well as KHARKOV, which will be a problem for his railnet.

SOUTH:

The forces down by the Donbas are retreating fast, and falling apart. I don't know where he plans to halt, probably around Z-Town/D-Town. A pretty severe runaway.

On a down note, the OKACHOV landings surrendered. About 25,000 cowards betrayed their motherland. Tarhunnas reacted very fast to that landing, he must have had some reserves nearby. Nice job on his part.

RED ARMY:
I gained a 2nd Guards Division this turn, and looking at the Commanders report, at least 6 units are "eligible" for promotion next turn. What is a benchmark for WINTER Guards?

Other than that, my biggest problem now is keeping the offensive alive, which will not be easy. I am beginning to outrun my railhead; I have RR Bdes building, but I can't control them. My truck surplus is heading to deficit for supply lines, and my units are getting depleted. I am starting to cannibalize some Naval Infantry Bdes, but I am trying to limit this practice, as I may pay in the long-run.

INDUSTRY:
I took everyone's advice, and started moving factories again

[Peltonx]

Nice recover Q-Ball.

I have zero exp as a Russian player, but Flaviusx seems to be right 99% of the time. So I would not waste any time moving stuff. I am sure Tanhunnas will come out punching come spring.

Pelton

[Q-Ball]

Turn 28: 12/25/41:

December is over, and I think I did pretty well. We ended with a bang, launching over 85 attacks on the Germans, 21 of them were HELDS though. Many of those HELDS I followed-up with successful attacks. I am sure Tarhunnas is counting on January to lift CVs and provide some relief.

See the losses below; this follows nearly 140K last turn, and 160 tanks. I think it's safe to say we are pounding the Wehrmacht. I don't have alot of Guards yet, but at this rate, it's coming; lots of divisions in the 5-6 victory range.

Again, I am targeting MOBILE units, to knock their morale down. I haven't been keeping track, but I can't find a MOBILE DIV with a visible CV over 1, and most Panzer Divisions I can see have under 40 tanks. This turn, I hasty attacked and pushed back 7th Panzer with a single Rifle Division. Ghost Division, indeed!

North:

Around Vishney Volochek, the German line is falling apart. I am sending a couple more divisions there to cause trouble, and flank the Finns.

We are within 2 hexes now of Moscow.

Center:

The Germans are struggling from Kharkov up to Orel; we are committing more reserves, including 3rd Shock Army, and another 8 or so divisions. Attacks continue along the line.

South:

The Germans pulled back 3 hexes, limiting my attacks to a couple hasty, and some Cav.

[Mehring]

As you may be aware, I don't follow the conventional wisdom as regards Russian air strategy. You've left it late- I start as soon as I have 2 decent moraled and experienced planes to fly together (fighters/bombers morale/experience 50/50 and 50/45 respectively in my book)- but you need to take on his air power or you'll be in no end of trouble.

To do that you need to bomb his airfields until nothing flies, 20, 30 raids per airfield per turn, whatever it takes. Use clouds of fighters to escort- biplane, monoplane, it doesn't matter, as long as the bombers get through to bomb most of the time. Don't be put off by heavy losses in the first waves. Start on fields where the fighters are concentrated, then the last bomber waves won't even need an escort. It's more dificult in winter as less planes fly but once you win the airwar everything else starts falling into place.

First thing every turn, use CR filter to find low stat air units and recycle them into reserve. Sort decent air leaders if you haven't already.

Pe 3 types can escort long range bombers deep into enemy territory.

My oponent is still dangerous on the central sector and the Finns still give me a pain in the butt. Elsewhere airspace is now uncontested. Here's from July 1942-

[Mehring]

...and check the recce plane tally. he's virtually blind in parts of the front now.

Oh, and don't waste your tactical bombers on airfield attacks. They cause no damage AFAICS and take heavy losses.

[Flaviusx]

Mehring, the Germans trashed the Soviet bomber industry in this game. They are not in a good position to execute this sort of attritional strategy. This indeed is going to dog the Soviet for the rest of the game.

[ComradeP]

Besides, it's somewhat gamey to cheese the Luftwaffe out of existence like that, knowing that he can't possibly attack your air bases in any meaningful manner.

Q-Ball, remember that you can assign a cavalry corps to an attack too if there are few chances to exploit a breakthrough and their unique skills (lower MP cost for moving into enemy terrain, better overall MP's) are not needed. That's how I make Guards out of weaker units: assign them to an attack made by an unstoppable horde of Rifle divisions. Most of the losses will be Rifle squads and the weaker unit will get a cheap win. In winter 1941, there are plenty of times when there's no such thing as "overkill" for the Soviets. If you can throw the kitchen sink at your opponent, do so.

All in all, considering the success of Tarhunnas' summer campaign, his current defenses are in an abysmal shape and his defensive strategy is suicidal on the long run. There's absolutely no need for the Axis to lose divisions in the first winter, it serves no strategic purpose at all to hold on to a city (like Belgorod). What matters is keeping the armed forces in shape. If there are only about 2.5 million effectives in the Wehrmacht in summer 1942, you're in serious trouble as the Axis and being able to say "well, at least I held city X" in no way compensates for that.

[Ron]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

All in all, considering the success of Tarhunnas' summer campaign, his current defenses are in an abysmal shape and his defensive strategy is suicidal on the long run. There's absolutely no need for the Axis to lose divisions in the first winter, it serves no strategic purpose at all to hold on to a city (like Belgorod). What matters is keeping the armed forces in shape. If there are only about 2.5 million effectives in the Wehrmacht in summer 1942, you're in serious trouble as the Axis and being able to say "well, at least I held city X" in no way compensates for that.

I agree wholeheartedly. The Axis player is courting disaster with this play. On top of that, with such low Axis AFV numbers and the new rules for attrition when attacking, I don't forsee much of a German summer offensive in 1942 at all. Nice play and rebound Q-Ball.

[Q-Ball]

Mehring, I appreciate your thoughts on Air Strategy. Actually you are right about the Crimea running out of gas, but this theater paid dividends I didn't intend. By diverting 12-16 Germans Divisions to cover that front, I think he used up his reserves, making life easier elsewhere.

I agree with Flav and Comrade on air strategy. First, I have a bomber problem and will continue to; I lost 1/2 my IL-2 and Pe-3 production in Moscow, and I have moved the remaining IL-2 factories from Voronezh, so right now my production of those is close to zero. I had to do that for the long-haul. I also think bombing the Luftwaffe out of existance in 1942 seems like an abuse of the airpower model and a bit cheesy. No offense, I just think some work has to be done there, so I'm not going to nuke him, even if I could.

RE: PANZERS, I don't know what the Wehrmacht strength will be in mid-1942, certainly over 2.5 mil because most Germans players have spare Manpower at this stage. But I really want to concentrate on knocking back the PANZERS. The way I read the rules, most of them are losing alot of morale. 1 pt for being outside, +1 for being attacked in winter, +1 for a retreat, that is 3 points per turn, or 12 total so far for most units. At that rate, they will all be around the National Morale in Summer, which is bad for the Axis. He can replace the tank losses, (which will help me in the SNOW, but not much beyond), but can't replace the morale. That's the key.

RE: CAV CORPS, I am finding ways to attack with CAV, mostly Hasty attacks on exploits, against units that have already been hit once or twice. I haven't "piggybacked" them much on big Rifle attacks, but may start doing that. I need to get their numbers up. I am close to guard status though on a Mountain Div, so that helps.

[Mehring]

Besides, it's somewhat gamey to cheese the Luftwaffe out of existence like that, knowing that he can't possibly attack your air bases in any meaningful manner.

Who said the Luftwaffe can't hit back in any meaningful manner? When I play Axis I keep bombing the Russian fields. It loses its ability to hit back if it lets the Russian airforce get out of hand.

@ Q-Ball
Yes, the air model needs adjusting but there is a balance of cheese here. A Luftwaffe ground strike destroys many times that of a Russian strike, and I'm not just comparing its effectiveness with biplanes and the like in 1941. German fighters completely rule any air combat well into 1942 (as far as I've got), long after the biplanes and I-16s have gone. This makes the Russian airforce fairly useless in any role other than destroying the Luftwaffe on the ground. If you don't hit his airfields you might as well ignore the air war completely in my view.

You don't need IL2s to bomb airfields, you need SB2/Pe2s, IL4s and the other heavies, Lend Lease bombers and loads of fighters to help them get through.

Your game, your choice, but until all the cheese is removed from the air model I don't see why the Russians should have their hands tied behind their backs.

[Flaviusx]

Q-ball, my own view is to take whatever easy attacks you can get and run up the score -- and thus cap out your guards conversion.

In the later part of the game what I have found is that the way to beat the German army for good is to grind the landser. Once the German infantry reaches a critical point, the Wehrmacht starts to collapse like a bad souffle, almost regardless of how strong the panzers are. They are also extremely vulnerable to massed artillery.

But there is also much to be said for knocking down the morale of the mobile units and thus limiting their mobility for 1942.