So where is the Ki-34?

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: m10bob
Sometimes we need overlook the people who are bringing things to the table, and instead look at what is on the table?

Well, I can point, at least, THREE Developers of this game, which are SERIOUSLY biased against one of the sides. That begs a question, who have chosen them to do the work?

Men make rules. If we don't break them at times, we will never appreciate why the rules are there, nor identify bad rules.

But what are THE RULES in this case?
There is D1A2 Susie in-game. bi-plane, predecessor of Val. It have ZERO pool, and I do not see ANY future units arriving with it.
There is also Ka-1, which not only have its own FACTORY, but also uses EXCLUSIVE engine, which have its own factory! I do not see any unit arriving with this "plane" either. Whats more, it is Patrol Army plane, and there is NO other Patrol Army planes, so NO unit can "upgrade" to it.

So obviously, it is NOT TRUE, that there was any methodology.


Now, I actually see ONE, potentially serious problem with transport planes. There is 29 transport planes in the pool, and production is set at 8. There is 14 transport airgroups on-map. Some of them not even full. Considering you can add 4 reserve, there is not enough planes in pool to do this.

Now, this is not that hard to achieve, if your loses will be considerable, and it is possible, if you would use Parachute Unit on strong defended hex, suddenly you will be unable to fill units again, because your production is too low. Logically, Japan should have ability to reequip the older model, same as with B4Y Jean, and Susie (if the last had ANY pool).

Ka-1 arrives on the Akitsu Maru in 1944. It was a modified observation/artillery spotter auto-gyro that replaced the observers seat with the ability to carry two depth charges on ASW missions. Granted it was of very limited use, but in this case it is the historical fact that it is the first rotor-wing aircraft to be used from a ship (basically, the predecessor to today's ASW helicoptors). In this case, it seems it was more of a 'fun and historic' than acutally usefull addition. [8D]

I'm willing to be most JFBs turn them off, as they really aren't that good.

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Ka-1 arrives on the Akitsu Maru in 1944.

Are you sure? I have checked THREE Scenarios, and no groups arrives for LSDs.

I'm willing to be most JFBs turn them off, as they really aren't that good.

Yeah, strictly speaking implementing them was waste of time [:D]
And they should actually arrive as reinforcements (with maybe pool, or static replacement), because when they become available for production in-game, they were long time OFF production already.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Ka-1 arrives on the Akitsu Maru in 1944.

Are you sure? I have checked THREE Scenarios, and no groups arrives for LSDs.

I'm willing to be most JFBs turn them off, as they really aren't that good.

Yeah, strictly speaking implementing them was waste of time [:D]
And they should actually arrive as reinforcements (with maybe pool, or static replacement), because when they become available for production in-game, they were long time OFF production already.

Akitsu Maru turns into a CVE at some point IIRC. I'll have to look again, I'm going strictly from memory, and that isn't always reliable.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Ka-1 arrives on the Akitsu Maru in 1944.

Are you sure? I have checked THREE Scenarios, and no groups arrives for LSDs.

I'm willing to be most JFBs turn them off, as they really aren't that good.

Yeah, strictly speaking implementing them was waste of time [:D]
And they should actually arrive as reinforcements (with maybe pool, or static replacement), because when they become available for production in-game, they were long time OFF production already.

Akitsu Maru turns into a CVE at some point IIRC. I'll have to look again, I'm going strictly from memory, and that isn't always reliable.

Now that I'm home for lunch, I have looked. Akitsu Maru has no upgrade and I see no squadrons using the Ka-1, so I wonder if something upgrades to it?

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: inqistor

But what are THE RULES in this case? There is D1A2 Susie in-game. bi-plane, predecessor of Val. It have ZERO pool, and I do not see ANY future units arriving with it. There is also Ka-1, which not only have its own FACTORY, but also uses EXCLUSIVE engine, which have its own factory! I do not see any unit arriving with this "plane" either. Whats more, it is Patrol Army plane, and there is NO other Patrol Army planes, so NO unit can "upgrade" to it.

So obviously, it is NOT TRUE, that there was any methodology.

You're right regarding the D1A - it appears to have been left in the DB by mistake, I can't quite remember to be honest. Whether an 0.2% aircraft inclusion error rate supports the contension that "obviously, it is NOT TRUE, that there was any methodology" is a different matter.

1st IF Chutai [slot 1121] upgrades to the Ka-1.

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Now, I actually see ONE, potentially serious problem with transport planes. There is 29 transport planes in the pool, and production is set at 8. There is 14 transport airgroups on-map. Some of them not even full. Considering you can add 4 reserve, there is not enough planes in pool to do this.

Now, this is not that hard to achieve, if your loses will be considerable, and it is possible, if you would use Parachute Unit on strong defended hex, suddenly you will be unable to fill units again, because your production is too low. Logically, Japan should have ability to reequip the older model, same as with B4Y Jean, and Susie (if the last had ANY pool).

We didn't really set out to safeguard players against their own mistakes.

[Local Yokel]

As best I can tell, some 68 Type 96 carrier bombers (D1A2) remained in second line service with the JNAF at the outbreak of the Pacific War, so in my own mod I have asssigned this number of these aircraft to the pool as potential replacements for the Type 99 with which some land-based units start out.

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: timtom
You're right regarding the D1A - it appears to have been left in the DB by mistake,

Well, if there is ONE case, there can be another.
Technically speaking THORA is present in training units on-map. But training units show only in 1945 (and I am actually guessing they are only there to use them as Kamikaze, so obviously no transport units, which can not be used as Kamikaze), and then there will be probably NO THORA in active duty in 1945.

1st IF Chutai [slot 1121] upgrades to the Ka-1.

ONE unit hardly justifies EXCLUSIVE factory, and EXCLUSIVE engine. Is not it?

We didn't really set out to safeguard players against their own mistakes.

Welcome to the world of Game Developers. Punishing players were popular 20 years ago, now you put pulsating arrows "here you should go for your next objective".
There are two cases for consideration, when making wargame:
First - historical accuracy
Second - game engine working

One of this difference is in Second version of VAL, it MAY have right statistics, but end result is NO Japanese player will use them, because they have shorter range, and range is main reason, to put anything on CV.
Now, would you be so kind, and go to my thread about VAL, and tell us, what you think?

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

As best I can tell, some 68 Type 96 carrier bombers (D1A2) remained in second line service with the JNAF at the outbreak of the Pacific War, so in my own mod I have asssigned this number of these aircraft to the pool as potential replacements for the Type 99 with which some land-based units start out.

Seems to be most logical resolution.
The only difference from JEAN is that, this latter is represented in unit on-map, however both planes are already obsolete.
However THORA is even in-production until 1942, so it should be in BETTER situation, than JEAN.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: timtom

As previously stated, the methodology employed for in- or exclusion of a particular aircraft was whether that an aircraft could be identified as the primary equipment of any one tactical unit. As concerns the Ki-34, no such unit could be identified come Dec.41, hence it's exclusion. Should anyone be able to furnish verifiable information to the contrary, such is of course very welcome.

It was apparently the standard transport involved in training, and for short range missions, by Japanese airborne. Thus, for example, you find it as the primary equipment of the First Raiding Sentai when the war begins. Both 1 and 2 "units" of 7 Hikodan start with it, but 3 "unit" has Ki-57. Apparently 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 13th Transport Chutai has it in 1941 (while 11th has Ki-56). Since I put para-military civil airlines in, it also appears in DNKKK and MKKK (Japan airlines and Manchukuo Airlines - which got the initial production of 32 before the Army started buying for itself).

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Since I put para-military civil airlines in, it also appears in DNKKK and MKKK (Japan airlines and Manchukuo Airlines - which got the initial production of 32 before the Army started buying for itself).

OMIGOD! Manchukuo Airlines had like 200 planes!
There were also, IIRC 3 such civilian organizations in China. I am not sure if they already joined into ONE, before war started.

Also, there was topic few months ago, about Dutch planes, which escaped Europe, and ended in Java. IIRC about a dozen.

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: timtom
You're right regarding the D1A - it appears to have been left in the DB by mistake,

Well, if there is ONE case, there can be another.

Obviously. No one is claming infallability, and by all means beaver away.

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Technically speaking THORA is present in training units on-map. But training units show only in 1945 (and I am actually guessing they are only there to use them as Kamikaze, so obviously no transport units, which can not be used as Kamikaze), and then there will be probably NO THORA in active duty in 1945.

You guess right.

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: timtom

1st IF Chutai [slot 1121] upgrades to the Ka-1.

ONE unit hardly justifies EXCLUSIVE factory, and EXCLUSIVE engine. Is not it?

The above-mentioned method also determines which a/c do get included. Subjective notions of "usefulness" isn't a criteria. Specifically in this case, the Ka-1 is an upgrade so can't be introduced as a default unit equipment but rather must be introduced as a replacement, which for the Japanese we've exclusively done via factories. The engine was unique to this a/c - rather than one we could fit in broad families - and there was an engine slot to spare.

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

As best I can tell, some 68 Type 96 carrier bombers (D1A2) remained in second line service with the JNAF at the outbreak of the Pacific War, so in my own mod I have asssigned this number of these aircraft to the pool as potential replacements for the Type 99 with which some land-based units start out.

Seems to be most logical resolution.
The only difference from JEAN is that, this latter is represented in unit on-map, however both planes are already obsolete.
However THORA is even in-production until 1942, so it should be in BETTER situation, than JEAN.

I might suggest that - in line with what previous posters have been driving at - should you want to be consistant in this approach you would need to include every obsolete a/c available to every nation in the game.

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: timtom

As previously stated, the methodology employed for in- or exclusion of a particular aircraft was whether that an aircraft could be identified as the primary equipment of any one tactical unit. As concerns the Ki-34, no such unit could be identified come Dec.41, hence it's exclusion. Should anyone be able to furnish verifiable information to the contrary, such is of course very welcome.

It was apparently the standard transport involved in training, and for short range missions, by Japanese airborne. Thus, for example, you find it as the primary equipment of the First Raiding Sentai when the war begins. Both 1 and 2 "units" of 7 Hikodan start with it, but 3 "unit" has Ki-57. Apparently 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 13th Transport Chutai has it in 1941 (while 11th has Ki-56). Since I put para-military civil airlines in, it also appears in DNKKK and MKKK (Japan airlines and Manchukuo Airlines - which got the initial production of 32 before the Army started buying for itself).

Thanks. Can you reference any of the above?

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: timtom

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: timtom

1st IF Chutai [slot 1121] upgrades to the Ka-1.

ONE unit hardly justifies EXCLUSIVE factory, and EXCLUSIVE engine. Is not it?

The above-mentioned method also determines which a/c do get included. Subjective notions of "usefulness" isn't a criteria. Specifically in this case, the Ka-1 is an upgrade so can't be introduced as a default unit equipment but rather must be introduced as a replacement, which for the Japanese we've exclusively done via factories. The engine was unique to this a/c - rather than one we could fit in broad families - and there was an engine slot to spare.

If by "upgrade" you understand adding those 2 DC bombs, situation is actually identical to Ki-76. I do not see any factory producing Ki-76.

Also whole modeling not only, do not shows what really happened (in 1944 Ka-1 was long out-of-production), but I do think, that for most Japanese player, FIRST action, during remodeling air factories, is to change both Ka-1 airframe, and its engine to something else. Situation is similar to Shinano. Maybe implementation have some reasoning behind it, but end result is completely opposite to design.
Is this possible to set fixed replacements ratio for any Japanese plane? That would fix the problem.

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

As best I can tell, some 68 Type 96 carrier bombers (D1A2) remained in second line service with the JNAF at the outbreak of the Pacific War, so in my own mod I have asssigned this number of these aircraft to the pool as potential replacements for the Type 99 with which some land-based units start out.

Seems to be most logical resolution.
The only difference from JEAN is that, this latter is represented in unit on-map, however both planes are already obsolete.
However THORA is even in-production until 1942, so it should be in BETTER situation, than JEAN.

I might suggest that - in line with what previous posters have been driving at - should you want to be consistant in this approach you would need to include every obsolete a/c available to every nation in the game.

That actually seems to be good idea. It will help Allies with their initial troubles with lack of airframes.

But again, THORA was neither dedicated trainer, nor obsolete aircraft in 1941. It was still in production. If comparing it to anything, I would say it should be compared to NATE. It could have been replaced by OSCAR already, but production was too low. There is not that much transport units on-map, so production was enough, to replace THORA. However aircrafts are still there, and are still in-production, and they are still considered fit for frontline duty.

WITP had like 20-25(?) years of research (since some WITP boardgame?), so it would be nice if developers would take what was in original game under consideration, instead of throwing everything away, because some source do not confirm something (but probably also do not deny).