Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar

[Ketza]

Watching your AAR with great curiosity. Keep up the good work.

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 107, German attacks

Nothing exciting up in the Finnish lines - but as the 6th Army pulls back to the "Kursk Line", its III PzKps counterattacks the lead Soviet elements, destroying 129 tanks in the process and throwing them back. However, its attack w/2xPzDiv against the 8th Gds Rifle Corps is bloodily repulsed, losing over 100 panzers.

Damn those Rifle Corps are tough! When they can hold off a pretty fresh PzKps without forts...wow! Fortunately they're sluggish too...

Also of note, I commit LAH to LVI Pzkps near Belgorod to stiffen the line before I lose it to Italy in a few weeks.

[Klydon]

Heh. Look at all the level 4 and 5 forts.

Rifle corps are brutal for sure if they are up to strength. They just have a lot of stuff in them to try to overcome.

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 109; Jul 15, 1943....clear weather

Soviet Steamroller continues to press forward in two areas: Towards Lake Ladoga against Army Group North, and towards Kursk against Army Group South. Niether of these locations were expected.

First, against Army Group North, I've decided on the first Operational Withdrawal of the entire campaign. Up to this point, I've been very reluctant to give up ground without a stiff fighting withdrawal. But here in the north, I've decided to pull back 18th Army to the Volkov Line due to massed Rifle Corps attacks which forced a crossing of the Syas River - this was my intended delay/hold line and it was breached easily. So to prevent the attrition of 18th Army before it reaches some well fortified positions, I've decided to pull it back. The terrain is lousy, and there no tank corps visible so I don't think I'll have a problem pulling back. Thats the good news. On the negative side, this move splits off the Finnish Kannas Army with two Corps from the 18th Army. Pulling these troops back to Finnish territory can't but help, but they will be tougher to reinforce. I don't expect the Soviets to push hard up north, but you never know.

The other downside to this plan is that it is going to open up a potentially dangerous flank to 16th Army which is still defending east of the Valdai Hills. With no pressure here yet, I'm reluctant to pull back towards the Valdai Hills just yet - but there is going to be a 50+ mile extended flank exposed east of Lake Ilmen if I'm not careful. I'm going to reinforce with some OKH divisions along the Msta River line, and I've already brought up 14th PG Div as a reserve "just in case".

I've found I can't hold against these massed Rifle Corps attacks - they are just too powerfull, even against fresh divisions in level 3 fortifications. The best I can do is make it expensive for them to continue their attack. Getting across the Volkov against level 4 forts manned with fairly fresh troops should be another matter. If not, there might be fighting in downtown Leningrad before the first snows...

[IdahoNYer]

East of Kursk, the ground shakes from the concentration of armor employed by both sides. The Soviets continue to try and force a breakthrough here, and manage to encircle 3xIN Divs of 6th Army around Yastrebovko. Fortunately German defenses held on the north side of the salient, or it could have been alot worse.

As it was, without the victory on the north flank, the Soviet penetration was exposed to counterattack.

To relieve the trapped infantry divisions, 4th Pz Armee's LVI PzKps assembled 3xSS Div, 2xPz Div and a PG Div plus some supporting infantry. All told, over 1000 AFVs slammed into the advancing Soviet Tank and Calvary Corps resulting in a wild melee west of Yastrebovko. After the smoke cleared almost 400 Soviet tanks were burning for the cost of less than 100 German and 2xTK and 1xCav Corps were routed. 6th Army's III PzKps and 2xIN Korps supported the attack in the north, routing another Tk Corps, and forcing a TK, a Mech and 3xRifle Corps to retreat. The cost was higher of course, about 150 German AFVs against 325 Soviet machines.

In any case, the 3xIN Divs were able to withdraw, and both PzKps redeploy to meet further Soviet attacks.

I'll attempt to pull back the panzers as I don't want them in the line to face the Rifle Corps sledgehammer if I can avoid it. Looks as though Soviets are massing against the Hungarians near Kharkov as well - 4th Pz Armee will need to free up some panzers to meet this threat in the coming weeks I fear. 27th Pz Div (OKH reserve) and 25th Mot (17th Army reserve) are situated west and southwest of Kharkov to react to threats here, but if the Soviets come hard, they won't be enough.

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 110; Jul 22, 1943....clear

Both Soviet offenses continue to bludgeon their way forward with concentrated Rifle Corps attacks - nothing major to report east of the Volkov Line, or east of Kursk.

Interesting development in the Crimea though....Soviet attack across Kerch Strait was bloodily repulsed. Level 4 fort, well defended, held off 3xRifle Div supported by heavy artillery. No Corps however.

So, here it is, the end of July 1943 and the Soviets have reached the 7 million in the losses column. Is that good? I have no idea....but it briefs well. So do the almost 20k in AFVs and the 32k in aircraft. Yet they keep coming...and coming...

[IdahoNYer]

I'm very surprised by the forces available. 3.4 million Germans against 6 million Russians isn't bad in my book. The 6500 German AFVs vs the 7000 Soviet machines is downright outstanding at this point in the war.

I really think German AFV production (Panther Ds outstanding) seems a bit much to provide over 6000 AFVs in mid 1943. I had expected to see a whole lot more Soviets and a whole lot less Germans by this time of the war.

[Manstein63]

I was under the impression that German units couldn't go north of the svir river but that doesn't appear to be the case
is it because you have transfered them to Finnish HQ's?
Manstein63

[karonagames]

3.4 million Germans against 6 million Russians isn't bad in my book

Yep, the soviets are about 750k light for this stage of the war due to the above average number pocketed in 1941, but this is also the time when the attrition balance should start tipping against the Axis. If you see the GE decreasing by more than 40k per turn, and the soviets increasing by more than 50k, your current "bonus" will soon be wiped out.

The soviet tank numbers look really low, but this is compensated by the higher aircraft numbers, so it will be interesting to see how this affects his rate of advance - the sturmoviks can kill a lot of tanks if the LW doesn't intercept.

Holding Leningrad/Finland until the end of the game could swing at least a minor Axis Victory.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer
To relieve the trapped infantry divisions, 4th Pz Armee's LVI PzKps assembled 3xSS Div, 2xPz Div and a PG Div plus some supporting infantry. All told, over 1000 AFVs slammed into the advancing Soviet Tank and Calvary Corps resulting in a wild melee west of Yastrebovko. After the smoke cleared almost 400 Soviet tanks were burning for the cost of less than 100 German and 2xTK and 1xCav Corps were routed. 6th Army's III PzKps and 2xIN Korps supported the attack in the north, routing another Tk Corps, and forcing a TK, a Mech and 3xRifle Corps to retreat. The cost was higher of course, about 150 German AFVs against 325 Soviet machines.

It's always cool when you happen to recreate something like a historical battle very close to the historical location and time. [8D]

Regards,

- Erik

[Q-Ball]

In my game vs. Tarhunnas, which is in February 1942, I have already lost 22,000 AFVs; more, in other words, than Scar has lost in this game, which is almost a year and a half further on!

I will admit that our game has been an AFV bloodbath; I have purposely gone after Panzer Units in Winter, and I have been using Tank Bdes alot in combat.



I bet Scar's low OOB Tank Numbers are due to not having enough Tank Units on the map. I bet he has plenty in the pools.

[IdahoNYer]

Q-Ball

He's been using his Rifle Corps to great effect, but not exploiting yet with Tank Corps. When he does, my panzer strength is still good enough to effectively counter attack. He does have scads of armor in his pools, I'm just waiting for the horde to arrive in units....

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 111; Jul 29, 1943.......all clear

18th Army begins occupying the "Volkov Line" with fingers crossed. Will it be enough to hold against massed Rifle Corps?? Probably not, once he assembles. And that's my question that I'm curious to see - by pulling back about 50 miles, will it effect his ability to bring his artillery and resupply forward? Probably not. The river line should help though.

I've railed up 3xIN Div from OKW as well as a Luftwaffe Field Div to fill out the Finnish IV Corps assigned to 18th Army to "plug" the gap between 18th and 16th Armies. My bet Scar is going to turn south at the Volkov Line and put pressure here - I can give ground for a bit, but this is going to be tough unless I pull 16th Army back.

Perhaps this is part of Scar's master plan - no attacks due west of Moscow has left 16th, 9th and 3rd Pz Armies well forward, still in some cases within 20 miles of Moscow itself. By attacking here in the north, he is effectively outflanking these German eastern positions - one's he knows I'm very reluctant to abandon. Going to be a tough call to pull westward without a fight....

Lastly in the north is the Kannas Finnish Army. Battered in the recent weeks during its fighting withdrawal, it really isn't in great shape to hold off a major Soviet thrust. Of course, I didn't expect Scar would attack here in force - why would he - just forest?? Of course, he looks like he is going to push hard, and I'm likely to run like hell to get out of the way....maybe pull him north...to where his Corps and artillery will take a while to redeploy against Leningrad.

[IdahoNYer]

Soviet attacks east of Kursk continue, but the tempo has slacked off this turn - only a few attacks, and one very big repulse against the SS LAH and Totenkopf Divs which cost the Soviets 15,000 casualties vs 1000 German.

That was the good news....

The bad news is that the Soviet Steamroller looks to be expanding its attacks as Soviets mass against 2nd Army near Orel and launch their first attack - I expect more in the coming weeks.

6th Army continues to refit its III PzKps which I can use as a fire brigade to assist AGC to its north, or send it south if 17th Army needs help. Will see what develops.....

[IdahoNYer]

Down in the Crimea, Scar gets fancy and pulls off an amphibious landing behind the Kerch defenses.

3xBdes (Ski Bdes at that!!) land and advance to cut off the Kerch defenses. The over the strait assault, is again bloodily repulsed, but the amphib isolates Kerch - unless drastic measures are taken...

Enter, 22nd Pz Div. Released from XXXXVI PzKps of 1st Pz Armee, the 22nd Pz road marches through the Crimea and goes immediately into the attack, pushing back the amphib invasion to its beach head defense, and then reinforces the Kerch defenses.

German and Rumanian infantry complete the isolation of the amphib forces, and with a bit of luck, this will end the Soviet adventure toward liberating the Crimea....

[IdahoNYer]

This last screen shot shows what appears to be the "calm before the storm"....

While we have been battling the "Kursk Offensive" for the last few weeks, it looks as though two new offensives are about to strike - as indicated by recon sighting not only rifle corps, but tank formations and artillery both north and south of Kursk.

To the north, the "Orel Offensive" appears to have already kicked off with one attack. I've reinforced the front line fortifications and even deployed 2nd Pz Armee Panzers in the front line to bloody the initial Soviet attack as much as possible. 3rd Pz Armee has released 2nd Pz (with over 200 Panthers) as 4th Army reserve, and the "Bryansk Line" of level 3 forts on a river backstops the position. At worst, we may be forced to abandon Orel here...

To the south, just discovered by recon is the "Kharkov Offensive" group. What originally appeared to be a force to strike the Hungarians, it looks to also potentially hit the northern corps of the 17th Army. I've pulled the powerfull XXXXVIII PzKps (GD, 2xPz) north from 1st Pz Armee to backstop 17th Army and cut the 27th Pz from OKH reserve to 17th Army reserve. I've also shifted an infantry Korps from 1st Pz Armee north, releasing a Korp from 17th Army to reinforce its northern wing. Again, forward level 4 fortifications are along a river line, I want to make this as bloody as I can for the Soviets.

All this shifting of forces have left 1st Pz Armee fairly bare - only 11th Pz Div remains within its boundaries.

Will be an interesting month of August to be sure!

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 113; August 12, 1943.....clear

Well, none of those offensives I "saw" against AGC and AGS have so far materialized. Still some pressure there, but nothing what I feared.

Against AGN, the Soviets continue with heavy attacks. Surprisingly, the pressure seems more focused on the Finn's east of Lake Ladoga - and more surprisingly still, 2 of the 3 attacks are beaten off, despite very heavy odds.

Why.....attacking in heavy woods is generally to be avoided....

Soviets also seem to be skirting the Volkov Line, and instead trying to find a weak spot between 16th and 18th Armies. And it is weak here as the line extends. So, 8th Army HQs is entrained from Germany and will occupy the 100 or so miles east of Novgorod and the 16th Army. XXXXI PzKps with 2xPz Divs have been brought up from 9th Army just in case the Soviets press before a line is established. 8th Army will be manned by a Korps from 18th Army and one yet to be determined....

I really don't like extending front lines at this point, but I really don't want to pull off the established line east of the Valdai Hills. He's not pressuring me, and the line is pretty well fortified - without much behind it of course at the moment. This might, just might, offer the possiblilty of a counter attack cutting across the Volkov Line towards 8th Army - IF, and that's a big If, the pressure relaxes a bit in the south to where I can bring up 2xPzKps or so for a quick attack. Not counting on that right now. Still focused on defending in AGN area for the time being. However, its always nice to have plans....

[Q-Ball]

I have a question, not just for this game, but for all of them: Why defend the Svir River Line?

North of Lake Ladoga, there are several viable 3 and 4-hex defense lines in very good terrain. The Finns along the Svir are a bit stretched out, but bunched up north, you can probably hold off the Reds and have a reserve digging behind you.

You can start with a couple Finnish Fort Zones. If you pull back in September, he can't really follow you for awhile, because the Reds have to repair the railway before drawing supplies or really launching any kind of campaign.

There is nothing you would lose giving up East Karelia; it's just trees and swamp

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[IdahoNYer]

Now here, I'm surprised. Very Surprised.

Instead of the massed offensives I "saw" from Orel to south of Kharkov, only a few attacks materialized. Air interdiction and recon says he's still got a sizable force there, especially east of Orel and Kharkov, but a "mass offensive" is yet to happen.

Fine with me....

1st Pz Armee's XXXXVIII PzKps remains north supporting the defense of Kharkov, and all other positions have been reinforced as much as possible - to take advantage of river line fortification positions. Panzers are generally forward along those positions, but will redeploy as necessary once he launches - and I know where.

I've kept 3rd Pz Armee, directly west and closest to Moscow, fairly strong...just in case. The bill payers for the line stiffening has really been limited to 1st Pz Armee.

So we wait, and plug small gaps. This I can manage. Its the big Grand Offensive all along the front from Orel to south of Kharkov that would be challenging to hold.

[IdahoNYer]

Q-Ball -

Why defend the Svir.....because I can...[;)]

Seriously, I planned that position as an initial line to see if he was interested in going north - I didn't think he would, and just bypass with the bulk of his forces and continue to head towards the Volkov.

Now that he's put a large force to attack in heavy woods across a river, heck, that's fine by me. Its causing heavy losses, and he's not making much progress. For the moment.

Once he does achieve a breakthrough, or stretches my line where its not tenable, I'll bug out north just as you suggested.

For now, I'd just as well have him commit forces against the Svir that could better be used elsewhere.