Long Range thing again

[TulliusDetritus]

Sorry to ressurect this again but I still don't get it, really [&:]

It's july 1942. All my fronts have Air Commands attached to them with plenty of planes. They are supporting very well the ground forces. That I can see it.

Like 10 or 20 hexes behind the front I have the various Long Range Commands. What are they supposed to do? Should they fly and support ground combats, along with the units DIRECTLY attached to the front involved in these attacks (air attacks which I CAN see)? I am not sure they are doing that.

So what's the point exactly?

[TulliusDetritus]

"Soviet air group units are limited to providing ground support to battles involving combat units that are attached to a headquarters unit that is in a chain of command that ultimately reports to the same Front headquarters unit as the air group unit’s air base unit chain of command. For example, the 5th Guards Rifle Corps combat unit is attached to the 39th Army HQ unit, which is in turn attached to the Kalinin Front HQ unit. Air group units conducting ground support mission in a battle involving the 5th Guards Rifle Corps must be attached to one of the air base units that is attached to the 3rd Air Army HQ unit, as it is the only Air Army HQ unit attached to the Kalinin Front"

The manual is VERY clear. According to it, the Long Range Air Commands (attached to Stavka) should NEVER see action if the forces involved are attached to Fronts -wich have their own Air Commands [;)]

NOW this also means that a unit directly attached to Stavka (or to an army attached to Stavka: for example the Strategic Reserves) should ONLY be supported by air units attached to the Long Range Air Commands. So is that the real use of the Long Range Air Command: supporting units attached to Stavka?

That or I haven't understood anything [&:]

[Vyper]

I'm experimenting with the Soviet Air command structure right now vs the AI just to see how to work with these very issues.

You're correct in that now the BAK commands will never ground support. I've been playing with a couple different ideas.

First to to leave BAK's where they are and use all those DBAD's for City and other target bombing manually. Speading them a bit gives good coverage to bomb things like railyards, AF's, ect. Just not sure how effective that is yet or if it ever can be.

Second I just detach those DBAD's and assign them to fronts as I need them, as I never seem to have enough AF's. Doing that also solves the ground support issue. Then I just dismiss whatever HQ goes empty and put all those troops back into the pool...1 BAK, 2 BAK, ect.

Be interested to hear what other ideas people have.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Vyper
Be interested to hear what other ideas people have.

What I need is a definitve answer. I'd like to put these Long Range Commands to good use [:)]

[Q-Ball]

This is what I posted in my AAR. I haven't counted, but if you include the BAK air commands, fleet air commands, etc, once you go 1 per front, and even setting aside the Long Range Command for later, you have an excess of HQs.

If that's the case, you may as well put the men and vehicles back into the pool where they will do some good.

I, too, would like confirmation, because you can't build more AIR HQs. So once you hit DISBAND........it's gone

Minimally, these look like Excess:

1,2,3,4, BAK Air Commands
Black Sea Fleet
Baltic Fleet
Northern Fleet
7th IAK PVO Air Command

None of these convert to Air Armies, and if you go one per front, you don't need these Commands at all. (even setting aside Long Range Command if you do want to Strat bomb)

.....that's 80,000 replacements, and 4,000 Trucks, IF they can go away

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Minimally, these look like Excess:

1,2,3,4, BAK Air Commands

Perhaps not [&:] And that's what I don't get. As per rule, if you have let's say a Stavka Reserve Army fighting who's going to provide air support? Not the front air force (again, as per rule). In theory Air Commands attached to Stavka should provide this ground support.

But could someone please confirm or refute this? I am not really asking what to do with these assets. I simply want to 100% know the rule, how it works [:)]

[TulliusDetritus]

I mean, if that's the case and Stavka armies/independent units will ONLY be supported by Air Commands attached to Stavka itself then I will bring some BAK units forward to provide air support.

[Encircled]

Not entirely sure of the effects, but attacks with STAVKA attached units have gone in without air support, even when there is plenty available.

I've only one STAVKA air HQ left, and its not like all my STAVKA units don't get air support, so I too could do with some clarification.

[Joel Billings]

You will probably have to wait until Pavel returns from vacation to get a full answer. I think he will start having limited internet access next week, and will be back fully a week later. I think the real use of the long range air commands would be for non ground support bombing (city, airfield, ground unit, and also air transport). Think of them like the US strategic air forces, which were only occasionally called in to bomb ground units. I don't know the answer to whether they can support units directly attached to Stavka.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

You will probably have to wait until Pavel returns from vacation to get a full answer. I think he will start having limited internet access next week, and will be back fully a week later. I think the real use of the long range air commands would be for non ground support bombing (city, airfield, ground unit, and also air transport). Think of them like the US strategic air forces, which were only occasionally called in to bomb ground units. I don't know the answer to whether they can support units directly attached to Stavka.

Ok, thank you. Let's see what Pavel has to say about this one [:)]

[Flaviusx]

I have always used these for partisan resupply and deep strikes on airbases. If you want the bombers for ground support, reassign them to Frontal aviation proper. I personally split the difference and send all my Pe-2s to Frontal aviation, and keep the Il-4s with long range aviation. A lot of the lend lease bombers tend to be pretty good in the long range role, too.

Shturmoviks are really far and away your best ground support plane and you'll get these in ridiculous numbers in due course. Bombers are much more scarce, excepting the Pe-2 which does get produced in some quantity, and I think it's more cost effective to save them for special long range missions.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I mean, if that's the case and Stavka armies/independent units will ONLY be supported by Air Commands attached to Stavka itself then I will bring some BAK units forward to provide air support.

Just set aside one of the air armies and leave it with STAVKA to support independent armies. You get so many of these air army HQs eventually that there's more than one for each Front.

The BAK bases are really meant for the long range aviation. The oddball commands by Leningrad Q-ball mentioned I think are disband bait.

[Encircled]

Cheers

Pretty much what I have now

[76mm]

I've kept two of the BAK HQs to support the armies that remain attached to Stavka. Also, even if not used for ground support, I would think it could be useful to have these air HQs moved to priority sections of the front so that they could conduct interdiction and air intercept missions (which I think they do?).

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Just set aside one of the air armies and leave it with STAVKA to support independent armies. You get so many of these air army HQs eventually that there's more than one for each Front.

Ah, so they will [automatically] provide air support to these Stavka armies? You are confirming this, if I well understood? I guess that answers the last of my questions. Thank you [:)]

The only problem I see: now for example I have Stavka Armies fighting in the north and south. A single Air Army can hardly provide air cover to both areas.

The funny thing about the BAK thing is that the Soviets didn't have strategic aviation. In fact their strategic bombing doctrine was rather primitive (unlike the USAAF). To supply the partisans I am using the VVS air bases attached to fronts. I will use the DBAD attached to the BAK Commands for this task too, as per your suggestion.

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I've kept two of the BAK HQs to support the armies that remain attached to Stavka. Also, even if not used for ground support, I would think it could be useful to have these air HQs moved to priority sections of the front so that they could conduct interdiction and air intercept missions (which I think they do?).

Nice tip, thank you [:)]

[mmarquo]

Pavel had commented in an earlier post that the closest airbase is the one which supports combat even if it is from a different command. BTW, have you tried to reattach a BAK to a different air army and get it of STAVKA's grasp...hmmm?
 
Marquo [;)]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Pavel had commented in an earlier post that the closest airbase is the one which supports combat even if it is from a different command. BTW, have you tried to reattach a BAK to a different air army and get it of STAVKA's grasp...hmmm?

Marquo [;)]

So the rule stated in the manual was changed (according to Pavel's words). Therefore units attached to Stavka should be getting this ground support as well (from the "closest air base").

As for the BAK, I guess you are suggesting that I could attach them to Fronts. Well, the truth is all my fronts already have lots of planes. And I have several IAD, BAD bases (attached to Stavka) that I will be attaching to fronts (2 x IAD instead of 1 x IAD = x 2 fighters) in the future.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


So the rule stated in the manual was changed (according to Pavel's words). Therefore units attached to Stavka should be getting this ground support as well (from the "closest air base").

As for the BAK, I guess you are suggesting that I could attach them to Fronts. Well, the truth is all my fronts already have lots of planes. And I have several IAD, BAD bases (attached to Stavka) that I will be attaching to fronts (2 x IAD instead of 1 x IAD = x 2 fighters) in the future.

There was a previous thread on this topic (maybe your thread?), and they described certain changes to how GS worked, and then I posted some screen shots from a game showing that it worked differently, and then they said that was a bug, etc. As a result, I am now thoroughly confused. The best way to figure out what is going on is to watch your combats, the lines fromt the airbases show who is providing support. If I am not confused, there is one important thing to note: even if one of your front's is fighting (ie, not Stavka troops), BAK and other Stavka airbases CAN effect ground support, because the fighters in such bases are committed on air intercept missions against German ground support. If you watch the combats, some of the lines extend from your airbases to the hex of your defending unit (I think defensive ground support), and some of the lines extend to hexes of attacking German units (I think air intercept); however as far as I can tell all of them are included in the combat results calculation, so if your fighters shoot down German fighters or bombers it will still help you from a ground support perpective, even though they are not providing "ground support". Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Also, I don't see any point in attacking BAK Air HQs to Front Air HQs. The Front Air HQs can handle 24 airbases, which is a huge amount and which I don't think would be increased whether or not you attach a BAK HQ. As the war progresses, I make sure that every Front Air HQ has at least five airbases (2x fighter, 1x tactical bomber, 1x level bomber, and 1x VVS). Then I transfer additional bases and planes (or assign newly created air bases) to the highest priority fronts. Currently I think my most air-heavy Front only has seven airbases, so there is plenty of room for expansion.

[mmarquo]

The point of attaching BAK to a front is so they can support the Front's combat; it really pisses me off to see BAK airbases fully loaded with level bombers which do absolutely  nothing to support ground combat flaring a mere 10 hexes away from Moscow; it's like the Western Front is on it's own and STAVKA won't like a hand to help.
 
Maruqo [:(]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

The point of attaching BAK to a front is so they can support the Front's combat; it really pisses me off to see BAK airbases fully loaded with level bombers which do absolutely  nothing to support ground combat flaring a mere 10 hexes away from Moscow; it's like the Western Front is on it's own and STAVKA won't like a hand to help.

Maruqo [:(]

Marquo, the problem is it should be quite expensive (maybe prohibitive). These BAK Commands come with air bases and in theory plenty of planes. And still, my main concern is who is going to provide ground support for the units attached to Stavka. Because all the other units, no problem, Front Aviation works really well [:)]

Yes, 76mm, I had started a thread like this one but er, just like you, I was even more confused [:D]