Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Fishbed
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by Fishbed »

ORIGINAL: Keke

ORIGINAL: Tzar007

We should greet new thinking as a way to enrich our knowledge of the situation rather than automatically saying that everything else that has been published before was crap and mythology.

It's a debating technique. I have MA in History, so I know the intricacies of history writing. My Master's thesis was actually about the history of historiography. In another words, you are preaching to the converted. [;)]
debating

Keke, Ive got a MA in History too, and Ive been taught how to comment a book or a text since Im out of High-School. Saying everything before was rubbish is not a debate technique, it's unfair advertisement to the least, or trolling to the worse. You are a big boy, so please make us a favor: quit scanning pages and give us an extended opinion or a review, so I can go to bed a little bit more clever tonight. I am pretty sure you don't need to have PhD to sum up a book man [;)]
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BletchleyGeek
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: Fishbed
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
It also disregards the fact that most Germans felt that they were being ripped off - they actually were - by the Western allies terms at the end of First World War.
I beg your pardon? If someone ripped off the Germans, it was their leadership. By every standards, the Versailles treaties were not the worst ever to be enforced on a losing nation such as the IInd Reich. If you look for something closer to a "rip-off", check the "minor" Allies, the Turks or Austrian-Hungarians. But Germany? Please, come on...

The Economic Consequences of the Peace. John Maynard Keynes. New York: Harcourt Brace.

Just compare what Plan Marshall was and meant for Germany and many other Western countries, and now compare that with the settlement of 1919. And by Western allies, I basically mean France, sorry, Clemenceau.
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by Mehring »

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

ORIGINAL: Mehring

The thing is, if you don't have enough food to maintain a healthy work force, it's better to exterminate a part of it and feed the rest enough for them to work productively. Under herbert backe's "Hunger Plan" up to 30 million were to be exterminated in western Russia, to free up food for germany. Happy now?

I beg your pardon? What kind of unbelievable a$$ kind mandate were you given to feel like you can talk to me like that?
My grandma had to hide from the Nazis so she wouldn't get sent over there, in which sense do you feel like my question was ill-advised, you piece of self-conceited pig?
Your sarcasm mandates me to answer in kind? And being of part jewish extraction, of the many things I might be, pig is unlikely to be one of them.

I was wondering when the spate of complements would end :)
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JJKettunen
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by JJKettunen »

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Keke, Ive got a MA in History too, and Ive been taught how to comment a book or a text since Im out of High-School. Saying everything before was rubbish is not a debate technique, it's unfair advertisement to the least, or trolling to the worse. You are a big boy, so please make us a favor: quit scanning pages and give us an extended opinion or a review, so I can go to bed a little bit more clever tonight. I am pretty sure you don't need to have PhD to sum up a book man [;)]

Not for a troll like you. Many kisses and hugs.
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The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

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Rafo35
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by Rafo35 »

Just compare what Plan Marshall was and meant for Germany and many other Western countries, and now compare that with the settlement of 1919. And by Western allies, I basically mean France, sorry, Clemenceau.

The Plan Marshall had nothing to do with peace, it's not the settlement of WWII. What peace brought to Germany was a massive trial for war crimes, total military occupation and an actual division in 2.

Furthermore, the Plan Marshall was not put in place by a power that had lost more of its male population than any western nation ever had, while still having its former ennemy a lot stronger than itself ... and totally free of damage from the war !

In short, you can't honestly compare it to Versailles.
molchomor
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by molchomor »

Well I guess today you would have called it a pre-emptive strike ?

The nazis knew that Stalin was up to something, also they saw their chance after Stalin took the bait in that Paris embassy burglary-con (orchestrated by Heydrich if I remember correctly) and killed off most of the military staff that had been trained by Germany since the end of the 1920's. Also of course everybody knew that Russia was rich on resources and oil and resources were on everyones mind already in those times as they are now.
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Zebedee
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by Zebedee »

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
I'm well aware of that. Tooze rips apart quite a few of Aly's conclusions - which I do not fully buy either - but he recognizes the pioneering work of Aly's delving deep on the Third Reich records regarding how occupied countries were exploited to further the German war effort.

Not a few of Aly's conclusions but the bulk of his methodology and the bulk of his conclusions. But think I'll leave it there and agree to differ on how to read a peer review because by the standards I'm used to, that one (and others - Wehler and Wildt to name but two more) give Aly a clear 'fail'. :)
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Fishbed
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by Fishbed »

ORIGINAL: Keke

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Keke, Ive got a MA in History too, and Ive been taught how to comment a book or a text since Im out of High-School. Saying everything before was rubbish is not a debate technique, it's unfair advertisement to the least, or trolling to the worse. You are a big boy, so please make us a favor: quit scanning pages and give us an extended opinion or a review, so I can go to bed a little bit more clever tonight. I am pretty sure you don't need to have PhD to sum up a book man [;)]

Not for a troll like you. Many kisses and hugs.

Would it kill you to actually start to behave like someone who actually has a MA in history and stop having your apparent pun stand for a "debate technique"?! Thank you for bringing this book to our interest, but I am sure you have been in this kind of debate before, and we are all expecting more from you than scanned intros. I am genuinely interested in the thesis developed, but so far answers came from other people, who you simply accuse of not having read the book. If you think they just don't get the meaning of the book, while you seem quite familiar with its content, please enlighten us rather than keeping us in the dark. I am quite certain you had to write book reviews in the past, and that they were nothing like the quasi one-liners you've been posting since the beginning of this - btw interesting - thread.
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by Fishbed »

ORIGINAL: Rafo
Just compare what Plan Marshall was and meant for Germany and many other Western countries, and now compare that with the settlement of 1919. And by Western allies, I basically mean France, sorry, Clemenceau.

The Plan Marshall had nothing to do with peace, it's not the settlement of WWII. What peace brought to Germany was a massive trial for war crimes, total military occupation and an actual division in 2.

Furthermore, the Plan Marshall was not put in place by a power that had lost more of its male population than any western nation ever had, while still having its former ennemy a lot stronger than itself ... and totally free of damage from the war !

In short, you can't honestly compare it to Versailles.

Thank you. Basically, we're comparing apples and oranges here Bletchley_Geek. And while the Versailles "settlement" was far from being the treaty we needed to ensure that peace would last, it is a logical and understandable conclusion to the conflict considering the times, the damage inflicted to French population and French industry and the fear to see it happen again, while Germany wasn't occupied by 1918.

While lacking the far-sighted view that this treaty would actually ensure that the Germans would come back for a re-match, remember that 25 years later the Western Allies somehow thought about following this path too, even in 1944-45 - cf. the implications of the original Morgenthau Plan.

While a few people were clever enough to suspect the grief such a peace treaty would generate, like Anatole France, they were not a lot of them, and they most probably had not the insight we have - a socialist argument being broadly, while still being very relevant, that the German working classes should not be punished for the sins of their leadership, and that something else than a peace based on friendship was dooming peace itself. I doubt anyone could have reasonably thought at the time of the kind of apocalypse that happened in the end, but these were arguably very enlightened voices lost in the big mess, sound and fury of the long-awaited Pyrrhic victory.
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by Fishbed »

ORIGINAL: Mehring

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

ORIGINAL: Mehring

The thing is, if you don't have enough food to maintain a healthy work force, it's better to exterminate a part of it and feed the rest enough for them to work productively. Under herbert backe's "Hunger Plan" up to 30 million were to be exterminated in western Russia, to free up food for germany. Happy now?

I beg your pardon? What kind of unbelievable a$$ kind mandate were you given to feel like you can talk to me like that?
My grandma had to hide from the Nazis so she wouldn't get sent over there, in which sense do you feel like my question was ill-advised, you piece of self-conceited pig?
Your sarcasm mandates me to answer in kind? And being of part jewish extraction, of the many things I might be, pig is unlikely to be one of them.

I was wondering when the spate of complements would end :)

I fail to see what kind of sarcasm was present in my original question - it was a totally serious interrogation, and bringing it down to its economic aspects and implications doesn't imply that I meant to lessen the legitimate drama surrounding these despicable events. Didn't mean to bring back bad memories or bad feelings, but if I am not allowed to ask this kind of questions without raising contemptuous answers like yours, History - even in its poor and amateurish state like we're practicing it over these forums - has lost its bid. I just don't feel like having someone's random answer ("happy now?") so easily and cheaply make me look like some kind of tardy clueless crypto-nazi loon over these boards, thank you. Getting to know your interlocutor btter before before trying to shoot him down in flames for bad reasons would help.
Jakerson
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by Jakerson »

Hitler believed that striking Soviet Union would be good plan because Finland one of the smallest nations in whole Europe repulsed Soviet Union full scale offensive made by 70% of Soviet Union western side troops in winter war. Weakness demonstrated in Winter War is something that big empires cannot show or their empire face offensives from all sides this is what history has shown dozens of times.

Soviet Union demonstrated major weakness by failing to annex Finland with massive offensive. Hitler calculated that now is perfect time to strike Soviet Union and believed that soviet could be knocked out with fast war and blitzkrieg assault.
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Panama
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

Hitler believed that striking Soviet Union would be good plan because Finland one of the smallest nations in whole Europe repulsed Soviet Union full scale offensive made by 70% of Soviet Union western side troops in winter war. Weakness demonstrated in Winter War is something that big empires cannot show or their empire face offensives from all sides this is what history has shown dozens of times.

Soviet Union demonstrated major weakness by failing to annex Finland with massive offensive. Hitler calculated that now is perfect time to strike Soviet Union and believed that soviet could be knocked out with fast war and blitzkrieg assault.

Actually it probably was the best time to attack for the Germans. The RKKA was undergoing huge expansions in numbers of units and troops called up. Vast equipment upgrades in all arms catagories. Beginning if February 41 formed up were 41 tank divisions, 21 mechanized divisions, a few new Rifle Divisions, Airborne Corp and Anti Tank Brigades.

500,000 men were mobilized in the spring. All of these unit and men had to be trained and equiped. There was not enough time and certainly not enough equipment.

Add to this mess untrained officer corps, poor communitcations and Stalin's dread of provoking the Germans and the stage is set for disaster. If the Germans had waited a year the build up would have been much farther along. The Germans would have faced over 90 tank and mech divisions equiped with T-34 and KV-1 instead of old and broke down T-26 and BT.

The Red Air Force was in no better shape with new models rolling of the assembly lines and most pilots not even trained to fly them.

Probably the Artillery was in the best shape but they were short on things to pull the guns around.

From status report of the tank units in the frontier districts dated 17 June 41:
1) training is intermittant and uncoordinated
2) gunnery instruction is running two or three months behind schedule
3) coordination between troops within units is bad
4) the mechanized regiments have no conception of their proper role
5) wireless operators are inadequately trained
and on and on for another 17 items.

Many tank drivers didn't have more than a couple hours driving time. Just enough time to be able to drive a tank to the battlefield to get killed. There was also a severe shortage of NCOs.

The Soviets were short on supply, short on equipment, short on training, short on officers, short on NCOs, short on man power and short on time. That they had the perserverance and determination to survive and go on to win the war is a testament to the stubborness and toughness of the Soviet soldier. [&o]

















Mehring
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by Mehring »

I fail to see what kind of sarcasm was present in my original question - it was a totally serious interrogation, and bringing it down to its economic aspects and implications doesn't imply that I meant to lessen the legitimate drama surrounding these despicable events. Didn't mean to bring back bad memories or bad feelings, but if I am not allowed to ask this kind of questions without raising contemptuous answers like yours, History - even in its poor and amateurish state like we're practicing it over these forums - has lost its bid. I just don't feel like having someone's random answer ("happy now?") so easily and cheaply make me look like some kind of tardy clueless crypto-nazi loon over these boards, thank you. Getting to know your interlocutor btter before before trying to shoot him down in flames for bad reasons would help.

Use of the phrase “happen to have” in combination with your unnecessary use of quotation marks around “rational decisions” (you are not, like me here, taking issue with specific words and phrases, but an argument) gives an unmistakably sarcastic and belittling tone to your post. If this was not your intention I apologise for any upset caused.
The Plan Marshall had nothing to do with peace, it's not the settlement of WWII. What peace brought to Germany was a massive trial for war crimes, total military occupation and an actual division in 2.

Furthermore, the Plan Marshall was not put in place by a power that had lost more of its male population than any western nation ever had, while still having its former ennemy a lot stronger than itself ... and totally free of damage from the war !

In short, you can't honestly compare it to Versailles.

The Marshall Plan had everything to do with peace. It was part of a peace dictated not by two empires holding on to what they had against an up and coming rival, but by another up and coming rival made good. The nature of peace in 1945, is evidence that our leaders, whatever they may say in public about the inexplicable horrors of war and fascism, understood their causes only too well and were, implicitly and in part, culpable for them.

France, as well as her material losses during both wars, was capable of economic equilibrium based on industry and colonial markets and resources, which she was not about to willingly open up and share with her envious continental neighbour after either war. Britain, while more verbally sympathetic than her ally, was not voluntarily going to open up her empire to free competition either.

Enter the USA, a country with numerous developmental advantages over Germany, but in very much the same position- an economic powerhouse already saturating its vast internal market and feeling the barriers of the old empires as obstacles to her own development. The scale of the US and the supremacy of its production technique combined with the bleeding white and indebtedness of her rivals- allies and enemies alike- facilitated her emergence as hegemon of the western world in the aftermath of WW 2. Even before the second world war was over, the US was jostling with Britain, consolidating its economic interests in Saudi Arabia with military air bases (which served no purpose in the war whatsoever), in what had traditionally been Britain's imperial preserve.

The Marshall plan, part of a raft of measures attempting to undermine the causes of war, was a rare act of enlightened self interest and empathy combined with over optimism in the ability of regulation to iron out the consequences of uneven capitalist development in a nation state system.

The most important addition to the Marshall plan was the opening of world markets to German and US commodity capital while regulating the flow of national money capital other than the USD. With the industrial economies rebuilt to the same technical level as that of the USA, and institutions created to level out the minor trade imbalances envisaged, it was believed an economic equilibrium could be maintained in the US sphere of influence, making wars between the competing European nations a thing of the past.

The subtext to the Reagan era deregulation, the dismantling of these post war anti-war barriers, was a tacit acknowledgement that rivalry and war between the major and developing powers could not be regulated out of existence.

As for the Nuremburg trials, they were a curious mix of justice, victors justice and whitewash. They were part of the peace only in the legel precedents they set.

For starters, the vast majority of those responsible for mass war crimes escaped and found comfort and position in the new regime, shielded by successive German governments and the CIA. Adolf Eichmann, for example, was shielded by the CIA for fear his capture and interrogation might embarrass the US and the West Germany’s Adenauer government, revealing the collaboration of Hans Globke- Adenauer’s national security adviser, in drafting the 1935 Nuremburg laws.

In short, Nuremburg scapegoated a few top Nazis to let the vast majority off the hook.

Many of the defendants were charged with crimes that didn’t exist when they did what they did. I'm not one to get hung up on a technicality given the enormity of the crimes committed.

The most important aspects of Nuremburg were twofold. Its opening up and investigating for the benefit of society, the workings of the Nazi regime is something from which all humanity can now benefit. Secondly, it set the precedent of criminalising the plotting and execution of wars of choice, the ruling stating that it was from war that all the other evils of which the regime was charged flowed. It is by their own justice and legal precedent that today’s world leaders might one day be tried and hanged, against which the decay of today’s morality in the upper echelons of society shows in starkest relief.
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Panama
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RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

Post by Panama »

Too bad Nuremburg didn't try ALL the war criminals on BOTH sides. It would have been good to see those who murdered Polish officers and fire bombed innocent non combatant women and children put on the gallows.
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