B-17 in Naval Attack role.

[gus]

Looking for some opinions ...

How effective should the B-17 be when attacking docked/unloading TF's from 6000 ft?

-g

[Nikademus]

I have found, in both testings and in my actual campaign that once a B-17 group surpasses EXP 70-75, that they can be very dangerous attacking docked merchants @ 10,000 feet or less, particularily if the AA and fighter defenses are weak or negligable.

If your looking for a "historical" coralation, Heavy bomber ineffectiveness tended to be prevalent against 'moving' targets at sea coupled with attacking at very high altitudes. However stationary targets were a different story and B-17's did reasonably well against the beached transports at Guadalcanal, attacking at reletively low heights.

Brazenly sending in merchants into high risk areas without adequate escort is an AI specialty......and one of the only high points i've experienced in my current campaign (#19)

[Grumbling Grogn]

Slightly off topic but last night I sent two waves of B-17s against a IJN carrirer group at sea. I was happy to see two carriers hit with 2-3 bombs and one was set ablaze. I think they were set to 6,000 ft.

Now, I must admit they had hordes of escort and the IJN cap was pretty weak (having just pasted MY carriers). But, the B17s supplied the break I needed, when I needed it.

The entire CV TF was sent limping back to Truk where a sub capt. earned a navy cross polishing off one of the CVs when it broke ranks.

[gus]

In several PBEM games I have been both the beneficiary and the victim of the B-17. I expect to take some damage from these beasts (even a near miss from a B-17 stick is enough to do damage IRL) however in UV they repeatedly hit virtually everthing they aim at when the TF is docked/unloading which strikes me as a bit extreme.

So if you have a 30 B-17 strike against a 24 AP TF how many hits should one expect with 30 - 60 CAP overhead?

-g

[Nikademus]

keep in mind that with FOW on, some or even all of these "hits" may not be happening. I allegedly had a mixed Hudson and B-26 group skip bomb the CS Nisshin in a recent turn and report 7 hits.

Turns out few, if any scored as the CS never split off from it's TF and was in the process of making a leasurly return run from the base it was supplying when my carrier TF suprised it, finding the the ship pretty much undamaged (that is, before my SBD's sent it to the bottom)

I have noticed a high # of reported bomb hits via B-17's. Part of it is no doubt due to FOW, however i have suspected for some time that the multiple bomb per plane feature has snuck back into the game since 1.4 , at least with high exp groups.

Its really hard to say what one can "expect" with the scenerio you've drawn, as the game does a good job of allowing a multitude of variables come to play. Much will depend on the altitude of the attackers and just how well the CAP does it's job that day. If the 17's are attacking at between 6-8000 feet and are experienced (and are having a good day of their own) you might expect a couple of hits (inflated to more if FOW is on) if the TF is at sea and evading, and if AA is decent. If docked....expect more damage.

I rarely see confirmed hits against warships which are far more maneuverable than big slow merchant targets and CV's are a much tougher nut to crack now that the "uber"-bomber syndrome has been pretty much squashed.

[gus]

While I can't confirm my PBEM opponents losses I can confirm my own losses as the Japanese. 7 AP's were target and 6 received multiple hits. They were all able to start the return trip to Shortland but I have scuttled two as they were simply too damaged to make port IMO (90+ sys & flot damage).

BTW one of my Japanese opponents responded with the comment "Your Bomber are still MUCH to effective:(" and the other with an "UGGGHHH!!!!" so I imagine my raids were pretty effective as well

I have been playing UV since it first came out and thought that heavy bomber effectiveness against TF's had been corrected in a previous patch so this issue has not come up since neither I nor my opponents have been using the B-17 in this role until now.

-g

[Nikademus]

"UUUUGGGHHH"

is a term i am well familiar with in my current campaign

Again, hard to say Gus. I and a couple others did bring up this issue with Matrix pre 2.20 and the response was that there was no indication that the multiple bomb per bomber attacking naval/merchant vessels had remanifested. I think the problem here, "if" its here at all is that it only seems to manifest when bombers gain sufficient exp, at least in my games. Then again it may just be combat animations going a little crazy too. I've noticed since 2.0 that when torpedo bombers attack, there is often a "hit" animation as if a bomb or shell struck the target even though the planes are attacking with torpedoes and are clearly missing. All i can confirm is that the greater frequency of hits only starts happening until well into my games, rarely at the beginning when most BS's have starting EXP levels in the 50's. Greater #'s are a factor too of course. One balance factor that does exist during the early time is the zero production availability of B-17's in the game, if a player recklessly spends them on frequent attacks, naval and land both, he's not going to have very many left in only a short period of time.....more so now that fighters can actually "do" something to them. I had to disband no less than four B-17 BS's due to attrtion during my current campaign in order to beef up the remaining squadrons (before 17's started trickling in from the States)

Its also murky from the historical perspective as B-17's were primarily utilized as recon during the early days vs dedicated naval attack in the SoPac and when they did attack it was often at very high altitudes in the pre-war faith that high level bombing (stratosphere bombing as derisively called by the navy) could be effective against moving ships.

In UV, players benefiting from lessons learned and tending to be more aggressive often use even rare B-17's as dedicated naval attack units at altitudes anywhere from 100-1000 feet up to 8000 feet. (I usually attack around 6000 feet if i suspect the defense is weak as below 6000 they get hit with an acc and morale penalty)

Also, 'most' of my experienced frequency of hits have been against docked merchants and in that situation, combined with veteran EXP, this would appear to be a legitimate recipe for disaster. So far in my current campaign my 17's have been unsucessful in hitting any carriers or major warships (got a couple of old tin cans escorting the merchants though)

In the end I think your just going to have to grin and bear it. 2.20 focused on more obvious and urgent issues and will most likely be the last patch for some time as focus turns to WitP.