AI for MWiF-Italy

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The USSR doesn’t need a war for that. It can be an neutral major power.

ORIGINAL: WIFFE-RAW-7.0
9.7 Controlling new minors
You now allocate control of minor countries declared war on this step, to a major power on the other side (see 19.2 Entering the war), in order of declaration. The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it.

Whoever takes control of them in or sets up its forces immediately (see 19.4 Minor country units).

Not entirely true. Also see:

RAC 19.2 Entering the war
A minor country enters the war when:
• a major power declares war on it (it joins the other side); or
• it aligns with a major power (see 9.8).
If a minor country aligns with a major power, it is controlled by that major power. If an Axis major power declares war on a minor country in the Americas, it may only align with the USA. When Germany makes her compulsory declaration of war on Poland (see 9.3), it may only align with the Commonwealth.

In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it.

If there is more than one eligible major power, offer the minor to the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor’s capital (any home country in the case of the Commonwealth). If it declines, offer it to the next closest, and so on.

If every eligible major power declines, the minor (and all its controlled minors and territories) is immediately conquered by the attacking major power (see 13.7.1).

Also RAW 19.2

In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it.

[Extraneous]

Hmmm I'm not in the beta so I can't access the RAC. In this case the RAC seems to be in error. [:D]

See updated version of Post#: 280.

Rule: 19.3 Who can enter the minor

Minors.. DoW .. Alignment .. - Extraneous - Post#: 7 (2008)

[Red Prince]

RAW FE 7.0 is the version from which the MWiF RAC is taken. In post #281 I added the RAW line which is identical to the one in RAC. It is also from Section 19.2. Section 19.3 does talk about minors aligned with neutral major powers, but that situation is not as a result of a DOW. It comes from normal alignment.

[Extraneous]

Mine as it shows, are taken from WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf (World in Flames Final Edition 7.0).

This will preclude the use of “Peace Keepers” in MWiF. Here is what Steve posted in 2008.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets Post #: 10

More to the point, here is how it is described in the Players Manual.

7.7.6 Choosing Major Power for Attacked Minor Countries (RAC 9.7)
If during the second subphase of this phase, a major power declared war on a minor country, then the attacked minor country has to be aligned to a major power on the other side. Each of the eligible major powers that can align the minor are asked, in the order that their capitals are closest to the capital of the attacked minor country. See RAC section 9.7 for the definition of which major powers are ‘eligible’. The first major power that accepts aligning the minor does so. If none of the major powers is willing to align the minor, then the minor country immediately surrenders (see section 7.4.25 for a description of the process of surrendering).

Steve didn't post RAC 9.7 in 2008.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Mine as it shows, are taken from WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf (World in Flames Final Edition 7.0).

This will preclude the use of “Peace Keepers” in MWiF. Here is what Steve posted in 2008.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets Post #: 10

More to the point, here is how it is described in the Players Manual.

7.7.6 Choosing Major Power for Attacked Minor Countries (RAC 9.7)
If during the second subphase of this phase, a major power declared war on a minor country, then the attacked minor country has to be aligned to a major power on the other side. Each of the eligible major powers that can align the minor are asked, in the order that their capitals are closest to the capital of the attacked minor country. See RAC section 9.7 for the definition of which major powers are ‘eligible’. The first major power that accepts aligning the minor does so. If none of the major powers is willing to align the minor, then the minor country immediately surrenders (see section 7.4.25 for a description of the process of surrendering).

Steve didn't post RAC 9.7 in 2008.

Even more to the point: I'm assuming I have the same PDF you do for RAW FE 7.0 and that's where I got the quote for 19.2 which states that the major power has to be active. What this means is that I've added a note to my files to make the correction to the Player's Manual (which I am helping Steve to edit). This will pass by a number of eyes before it gets into the final copy.

My take: The Manual is in error, and 19.2 can't be discarded. In terms of how MWiF functions right now, RAW 19.2 is used to determine who can align a DOWed Minor.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Mine as it shows, are taken from WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf (World in Flames Final Edition 7.0).

This will preclude the use of “Peace Keepers” in MWiF. Here is what Steve posted in 2008.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets Post #: 10

More to the point, here is how it is described in the Players Manual.

7.7.6 Choosing Major Power for Attacked Minor Countries (RAC 9.7)
If during the second subphase of this phase, a major power declared war on a minor country, then the attacked minor country has to be aligned to a major power on the other side. Each of the eligible major powers that can align the minor are asked, in the order that their capitals are closest to the capital of the attacked minor country. See RAC section 9.7 for the definition of which major powers are ‘eligible’. The first major power that accepts aligning the minor does so. If none of the major powers is willing to align the minor, then the minor country immediately surrenders (see section 7.4.25 for a description of the process of surrendering).

Steve didn't post RAC 9.7 in 2008.

Even more to the point: I'm assuming I have the same PDF you do for RAW FE 7.0 and that's where I got the quote for 19.2 which states that the major power has to be active. What this means is that I've added a note to my files to make the correction to the Player's Manual (which I am helping Steve to edit). This will pass by a number of eyes before it gets into the final copy.

My take: The Manual is in error, and 19.2 can't be discarded. In terms of how MWiF functions right now, RAW 19.2 is used to determine who can align a DOWed Minor.

The PLayers Manual Section 7.7.6 is not in error. It references RAC 9.7, which in turn references RAC 19.2. I agree that this is not be the most direct reference, but it is not 'wrong'.

[Centuur]

Personally I don't think Italy (even with Bulgarian support) is able to conquer Greece in one turn in S/O 1939. As the CW I probably will try to support Greece in this case by sending peacekeepers to Athens. If that happens, thinks don't look good for the Italians.

[gridley]

Yes, but you could easily wait till his TRS have been committed, usually the 1st impulse, 2nd at the latest, then go in.

Plus, the more I look at it I just don't see how the Italians could stop the CW from getting 4 corps into Greece...with all the little isles in Eastern Med that should be relatively easy for the CW to put out of supply and invade onto. Once the 4 corps are in Greece then they can align Yugo.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: gridley

Yes, but you could easily wait till his TRS have been committed, usually the 1st impulse, 2nd at the latest, then go in.

Plus, the more I look at it I just don't see how the Italians could stop the CW from getting 4 corps into Greece...with all the little isles in Eastern Med that should be relatively easy for the CW to put out of supply and invade onto. Once the 4 corps are in Greece then they can align Yugo.

In '39 the CW doesn't really have much of an army outside of the UK. They'd have to take troops away from other theatres (France?) in order to do this, but it might be worth it.

[Orm]

If I am Germany and CW use up all TRS during the first turn of Global War to transport 4 corps to Greece I am more than willing to take the hit that they align Yugoslavia. I will then occupy Netherlands without having to worry about any CW interference there. And with Netherlands in run over I am sure I can run over Belgium fast as well. Both during the first turn if it doesn't end to fast.

I suspect that France could be in danger early with that strategy.

[Centuur]

True, however an alignment of Yugoslavia by the CW could mean that Germany has to fight in the Balkans. As a German player you wouldn't want a Yugoslav CAV running around Austria/Czechoslovakia (remember: Italy isn't at war with Yugoslavia at that point). And you'll need to take at least one naval action to protect you're CP in the Baltic and need to conquer Denmark to. Together with the DoW on the Netherlands and Belgium this means an awful lot of DoW by the Axis in 1939. The US would love all this action...

[Orm]

The effect on US entry is somewhat lesened by Allies aligning Yugoslavia. What I do not like about this is the US entry roll for Allies support attacked minor.

Still, I really like to know that I have no interference from CW in Netherlands and Belgium.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Orm

The effect on US entry is somewhat lesened by Allies aligning Yugoslavia. What I do not like about this is the US entry roll for Allies support attacked minor.

Still, I really like to know that I have no interference from CW in Netherlands and Belgium.

Yes. The earlier France can be removed from Europe the better. Messing around in the Balkans is a small price to pay if France falls a couple of turns earlier (with minimal Axis losses and expenditure of O-chits).

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Orm

The effect on US entry is somewhat lesened by Allies aligning Yugoslavia. What I do not like about this is the US entry roll for Allies support attacked minor.

Still, I really like to know that I have no interference from CW in Netherlands and Belgium.

Yes. The earlier France can be removed from Europe the better. Messing around in the Balkans is a small price to pay if France falls a couple of turns earlier (with minimal Axis losses and expenditure of O-chits).

yes , and Yugoslavia is totally easy to conquer ... then you will have cw units without support ...

I have seen a big 1941 CW army being out of supply in the Balkans .. it cost the CW around 100 BP .. in land units, planes, pilots, transports.

a stupid mistake.. they had moved up in Yugoslavia ..but had no CP in the Italian sea. so a lucky Italian invasion in Salonica. so they had only 1 real supply port ... stupid

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Orm

The effect on US entry is somewhat lesened by Allies aligning Yugoslavia. What I do not like about this is the US entry roll for Allies support attacked minor.

Still, I really like to know that I have no interference from CW in Netherlands and Belgium.

Yes. The earlier France can be removed from Europe the better. Messing around in the Balkans is a small price to pay if France falls a couple of turns earlier (with minimal Axis losses and expenditure of O-chits).

yes , and Yugoslavia is totally easy to conquer ... then you will have cw units without support ...

I have seen a big 1941 CW army being out of supply in the Balkans .. it cost the CW around 100 BP .. in land units, planes, pilots, transports.

a stupid mistake.. they had moved up in Yugoslavia ..but had no CP in the Italian sea. so a lucky Italian invasion in Salonica. so they had only 1 real supply port ... stupid

Yes, but Churchill would have loved it.[;)]

[Centuur]

Hmmm. I think I would give it a try with the AI in MWIF as soon as it is on the market... Make an Italian DoW on Greece on the 3rd Impulse of SO 1939, align Bulgary and see what happens than. It sure is better than to sit tight as the Italians, if the CW or France have done a good job on the setup...

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

I'm not convinced how easy it is to stuff Greece with 4 CW corps. Say you stick them all on TRS, shipped from the CW. You have no Marines or Amph, so the initial port taking will have to be with a div on a cruiser. But that in turn means you'll need to have the TRS sit in the Med for an impulse. When the Italians DoW you on that surprise impulse, even their little Gabbiano can chew up your TRS, the CW AA values are awful. If I even sink one, the entire strategy is busted. If you negate surprise by DoWing Italy first, that's effectively a 19 shift on the U.S. entry. (-12 for Allied DoW on Italy, not getting the 7 for Italian DoW on the WAllies.) That starts getting awfully expensive just to pick up Yugoslavia.......

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

I'm not convinced how easy it is to stuff Greece with 4 CW corps. Say you stick them all on TRS, shipped from the CW. You have no Marines or Amph, so the initial port taking will have to be with a div on a cruiser. But that in turn means you'll need to have the TRS sit in the Med for an impulse. When the Italians DoW you on that surprise impulse, even their little Gabbiano can chew up your TRS, the CW AA values are awful. If I even sink one, the entire strategy is busted. If you negate surprise by DoWing Italy first, that's effectively a 19 shift on the U.S. entry. (-12 for Allied DoW on Italy, not getting the 7 for Italian DoW on the WAllies.) That starts getting awfully expensive just to pick up Yugoslavia.......

The CW doesn't need to capture a port in Greece. The Italian DOW lets the CW align it.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Oh, oh, my apologies. I thought this was some weird mediterranian gambit where England DoWed Greece, not a defense situation. :S Although I still question the ability to get 4 units to Greece through the Italian Navs. Maybe if you stuck all your carriers with the TRS, but still..... The Eastern Med is kind of their playground.

[Red Prince]

[:)] It's okay. Picking up halfway through isn't always easy.

I actually agree with you. It's risky for the CW. They don't start with a lot of land units to spare.