Death of the Luftwaffe in early 1942 -- WAD?

[marty_01]

Death of the Luftwaffe in early 1942 -- WAD?

It's a PBEM game. I’m losing between 100 and 200 aircraft a turn from Soviet Airbase attacks. This started in Early Spring of 42 and has been continuing for about the last 6 or 7 turns. It doesn’t seem to matter if the air base is stacked up the ying-yang with German fighters or German Bombers. It also doesn’t seem to matter if I pile a bunch of flak in Luftwaffee HQs and keep my air base elements stacked with these HQs. I’m still losing a lot of aircraft to Soviet air base attacks.

The exchange rate is pretty strange as well – at least given what I know of the actual air war during this particular period. I am actually loosing aircraft at a rate of about 3:2 – in the Soviets Favor.

[Speedysteve]

There's unfortunately not a lot that you can do about it at present. The air model is on the agenda for a thorough working through in due course!

[mmarquo]

What happens if you move the bases back greater than 10 hexes behind the Soviet front line - beyond their fighter and IL-2 range?
 
Marquo

[marty_01]

I want to ask: "Are you kidding?!" but your post sounds pretty definate. I also want to ask: wasn't this detected during early beta play testing of the 41- 45 GC? But than I've asked the same question too many times already.

So for all of you Soviet players looking for something fun to do with the uber-mega-plethora of air power that you'll have milling around by late winter of 41-1942 -- just bomb the pooh out of every German airbase in range -- every turn -- 10 to 30 times per base. Poof -- no more luftwaffe in about 6 or 8 turns.

Bronx Cheer salute

[marty_01]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

What happens if you move the bases back greater than 10 hexes behind the Soviet front line - beyond their fighter and IL-2 range?

Marquo

Have all ready done that just to get out of his fighter range. Now my ground units are getting hammered from interdiction. Maybe I should try the Iraqi approach to Air Power and start burying all my aircraft in pits or sending them on a one way trip to Iran.

Historically the Luftwaffe didnt have to be cower several hundred miles behind the front lines to avoid an air superiority duel with the Red Air Force -- at least not in 1942. Sorry -- but this is pretty silly.

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: marty_01

Death of the Luftwaffe in early 1942 -- WAD?

It's a PBEM game. I’m losing between 100 and 200 aircraft a turn from Soviet Airbase attacks. This started in Early Spring of 42 and has been continuing for about the last 6 or 7 turns. It doesn’t seem to matter if the air base is stacked up the ying-yang with German fighters or German Bombers. It also doesn’t seem to matter if I pile a bunch of flak in Luftwaffee HQs and keep my air base elements stacked with these HQs. I’m still losing a lot of aircraft to Soviet air base attacks.

The exchange rate is pretty strange as well – at least given what I know of the actual air war during this particular period. I am actually loosing aircraft at a rate of about 3:2 – in the Soviets Favor.

As I understand it, the Grand Campaign was never tested beginning to end human vs human. It was tested computer vs computer. Don't expect a computer to do anything more than what it's programmed to do, which I'm sure didn't involve destruction of the Luftwaffe by 42. [:D]

I guess being thorough would have been a good idea. [8|]

[randallw]

It seems the Red Air Force does recover strength quite quickly; by the end of 1941, in the game, it's in reasonable shape. 

Perhaps the construction rates of Soviet aircraft are subject to the averaging situation, so they get more planes in 1941 gamewise than they did in real life?

[davetheroad]

Elsewhere on the forum it is reported that the air engine is broken. Stuff just does not happen as it should. for example in some cases the model works the wrong way around and the weaker, less experienced russian units are more likely to fly and cause casualties? than the 'elite' luftwaffe.

to add my opinion
in the manual it states that the luftwffe is less likely to fly in really bad weather than the Finns or Russians. Surely this should only apply to the first winter. The germans were not stupid!

[Ketza]

What are your air doctrine settings? Im not having the airbase issue in my games. In one game its Sep 1942 and Im still running 10-1 loss ratio in my favor.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: marty_01

Death of the Luftwaffe in early 1942 -- WAD?

Now there are minor to moderate issues in the air model that are being worked as Speedy noted.

HOWEVER a lot of people have played PBEM past 42 and the Luftwaffe still dominated the Soviets. For example, Ketza is a superb player who has consistently done well in multiple games documented in AARs (see above post)

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: marty_01

Death of the Luftwaffe in early 1942 -- WAD?

Now there are minor to moderate issues in the air model that are being worked as Speedy noted.

HOWEVER a lot of people have played PBEM past 42 and the Luftwaffe still dominated the Soviets. For example, Ketza is a superb player who has consistently done well in multiple games documented in AARs (see above post)

From posts it would appear that it takes a lot of attention to detail to arrive at the early smashing of Axis airpower. It's not something that just happens. So if someone's opponent does not take the time to cause this it will not appear. It also seems some ahistorical measures can be taken to avoid it.

[Speedysteve]

Oh it definitely requires a lot of time and effort on the soviet player for it to happen. It won't happen by itself or just 'normal' play for example

[marty_01]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Oh it definitely requires a lot of time and effort on the soviet player for it to happen. It won't happen by itself or just 'normal' play for example

Time in terms of game turns? Or time in terms of the Soviet player clicking air base attack over and over and over and over and over each turn. If you mean the latter than I suppose. The real risk to the Soviet player is repetitive stress injury while clicking over and over and over on the airbase attack button. That's all that's required. Beyond that it's nothing particularly challenging on the part of the Russian player. And don’t be fooled by the chaff. Ain’t no air doctrine settings that will save you from the air superiority click fest strategy.

I played the game enough on both sides of the hill. Soviet air reserves by early 1942 are immense, so as I say if the player is willing to click--click--click--click--click---click on air base attack each turn he will achieve the desired effect. The exchange ratio in each click with the current airbase attack combat results is near unity and often in the Russians favor. click--click--click--click--click---click. I am literally seeing 25 to 50 individual attacks on a given airbase each turn for the last 6 or 7 turns. Multiply that by 15 or 16 air base locations that are typically being attacked per turn. Each click averages 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 and sometimes more aircraft damaged or destroyed per side. Do the math yourself. Luftwaffe is destroyed in 6 or 8 turns of air base attacks. Or you stick everything in Reserve -- or move your bases well back from the front and live with mass air interdiction. If you’re willing to invest the time into a click fest than you can have air superiority in early 1942…regardless of your bloody air doctrine settings.

I don’t care if some of you don’t believe me or not or if you've survived just fine in 1942 with the German air planes. It is what it is. As more people discover this aspect of the game they'll also be back here with a Bronx Cheer...!

[WarHunter]

[/quote]I don’t care if some of you don’t believe me or not or if you've survived just fine in 1942 with the German air planes. It is what it is. As more people discover this aspect of the game they'll also be back here with a Bronx Cheer...![/quote]

Bronx Cheer...!+1

I've posted on this issue of the Soviet Air Force dominating. There are posts saying this will be fixed in the future.

Until then, It is what it is.

So, Bomb Polesti and any other city you can reach as the Soviet. Bomb airfields until your mouse button is worn down. Melt each of the axis allied Air forces one after another. They don't have the production to stay in the game.

In clear weather the axis have a slim chance to fool themselves they are doing well. The loss ratio seems so comforting. Its just a trap. During any Mud, Snow or Blizzard, the Red Air Force Dominates. It just a matter of time. Historical not so much.

Show me an AAR that the German Air force is doing well, when suffering under continuous air field attacks. I'd like to read that one.

Misery thy name is etched across the skies of Russia.

[hfarrish]

I don't understand why every single PBEM is not being played with house rules of no airbase attacks after turn 1. Everyone knows this is broken, so why sit there going through it and then complaining about how your air force got wrecked? Doesn't mean it shouldn't get fixed, but its just amazing that people would put the time into 225 some odd turns while allowing something that is clearly in the parties ability to stop.

My 6 or so PBEMs have been or are all being played with this rule, I am the Soviet in 5 out of 6 of them, and I certainly would rather win the right way...

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

I don't understand why every single PBEM is not being played with house rules of no airbase attacks after turn 1. Everyone knows this is broken, so why sit there going through it and then complaining about how your air force got wrecked? Doesn't mean it shouldn't get fixed, but its just amazing that people would put the time into 225 some odd turns while allowing something that is clearly in the parties ability to stop.

My 6 or so PBEMs have been or are all being played with this rule, I am the Soviet in 5 out of 6 of them, and I certainly would rather win the right way...

PRECISELY!!!

[entwood]

Oh thank god.  Some kindred spirits. 

Soviets bombers were engaged in more types of missions than Air Field bombing,  Some diffusion of missions should be required maybe based on Leader attributes that get circumvented to easily and that are not accounted for in ways that maybe they should be.   Air Gambits.   

I'm really thinking this game should implement a basic and advanced game approach so as to appeal to both gamers and players.

[WarHunter]

So if you started a PBEM game back in Jan 2011 with version 1.03 and it just happens you have reached turn 52 now after months of playing. You tell your opponent to stop attacking the Airbases? Please don't bomb my cities? Refrain from anything air related that might be an issue?

Maybe if i was starting a new game I'd just wait for the next official patch. But this info coming out was not in the description in January. It was only found out in the last few months by players doing what they do, playing the game within the parameters allowed. Not by playing the AI. I saw no warning label, "Air war may not be the historical simulation you are looking for."

Some people read these posts like it is nothing but complaining. Its not. These are facts related to the game, by players of the game. Not beta testers. Just plain gamers spending some time playing a game. Facts that can be repeated within the game version 1.03 being played now. Not everyone plays or wants to play a beta.

Should we ignore our facts and keep them to ourselves because some players don't like to read these posts?

Should we not post our facts?

Should we not point out where we have found fault?

Should we not discuss the hopes and dreams for a future fix?

Should we suffer in silence keeping this information to ourselves instead of sharing the information?

The forum is a place where we are encouraged to speak out. Even if it means the same issue is brought up by different people and different times.

Just because it is going to get fixed, does not mean players should not speak up about current games and the issues with the airwar.

If the Forum moderators wanted to, they could make a Sticky where all the air war problems, real or imagined could go. Where it would all be in one place so people could ignore the complainers and the facts. But i don't see a sticky.

If you have a problem with the airwar in your game.

Post it.

Just because someone brought up an issue with the airwar in the past, is not a reason not to post it today or tomorrow. More information about a problem means a more satisfying fix in the future.

Post it and make it part of the evidence for a better airwar in the east.

[Mehring]

I don't understand why every single PBEM is not being played with house rules of no airbase attacks after turn 1. Everyone knows this is broken, so why sit there going through it and then complaining about how your air force got wrecked? Doesn't mean it shouldn't get fixed, but its just amazing that people would put the time into 225 some odd turns while allowing something that is clearly in the parties ability to stop.

You are all perfectly happy to allow the Luftwaffe to accumulate ridiculous numbers of combat worthy aircraft, never questioning how historical the numbers the game allows might be, but all become indignant when the Russians bomb them back to size.

What about doing the best with the game you can until its fixed and developing tactics to counter the Russian base bombing?

[Encircled]

Basically, loads more flak on the bases, aircraft dispersal, careful positioning of Luftwaffe bases, counter strikes against Russian bases.

I have to admit to having a game going on where I've decided not to bomb the bases, but its obviously up to each individual player.

I'm not sure that I'd have such a rule in place when I start a new game