Can we have a LOAD counter?

[vlcz]

This otherwise magnificent game is IMHO plagued by its inability to assure a certain degree of security in PBEM/server game.

PBEM is definitely out of question with other than a most trusted opponent, given the turn mechanics anyone can try and retry movements and attacks, so no real point of FOW, random rolls for reserves, etc ,etc..

Ok so we have a multiplayer server!!!, but wait..... as it doesnt autosave ít is really SAME PROBLEM than in PBEM..[:@]

As I am quite sure that the definitive answer -í.e. autosaving each action- will not be ioplemented (it would require being on line all the turn, a thing not everybody does/likes) can we have an indicator of how much times our opponent LOADED -he can save for security as much as he wants- a given turn?

This would be no panacea for sure , but knowing if your opponent loaded 4 times (i.e. making the turn in batches) or 45 times would put things clearer.

[Erik Rutins]

Hi vlcz,

We don't discuss the cheat prevention on the PBEM++ server, but we do have staff monitoring player activities and making sure that any suspicious activity is addressed. We are also continuing to improve PBEM++ over time, both in terms of features and cheat prevention.

Regards,

- Erik

[Michael T]

Nice to hear Erik.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: vlcz
This would be no panacea for sure , but knowing if your opponent loaded 4 times (i.e. making the turn in batches) or 45 times would put things clearer.

Loading 4 times or 45 times isn't a problem anyway, it's the reloads that need to be red flagged.I think this should be implemented as a matter of priority, not only to discourage cheating, but also to reassure opponents that you're not cheating.It might be possible to have the option of punishing excessive reloads in some way, maybe with victory points.Or players could even mutually agree on zero tolerence if they both have reliable internet conections so that any reloads at all are punished.
I've had to reload once or twice for legitimate reasons, but I'd happily except some form of penalty in return for the reassurance that my opponent isn't cheating.

[vlcz]

Loading 4 times or 45 times isn't a problem anyway, it's the reloads that need to be red flagged

Not sure I fully understand the diference between load and reload, but I think we are refering the same [;)]

I am most pleased after reading Erik´s answer about monitoring and future improvements, thanks for your continued work and support.

[Tarhunnas]

I think PBEM and server games are mixed up here. Server games appear to minimise the possibilities for cheating, that is good. The problem is PBEM games.

I think the OP has a good idea. Why not simply have a load counter that counts the number of times the turn was loaded and saves that number along with the savefile? Just the number of loads should tell if something fishy is going on.

Normally I do my turns in one go, occasionally I don't have the time to do the entire turn in one go, but then I usually don't turn off the computer and reload, I just let it go to hibernate. The only times I have reloaded has been when I have had crashes, and that has been once or twice in the last month. So normally the number of loads during a turn should be one and no more.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Server games appear to minimise the possibilities for cheating, that is good.

How so? A couple of times my computer has crashed during a server game turn and I've had to start the turn over, and my moves were not saved. If I really wanted to, I supposed I could just turn my computer off every time I wanted to play a turn over. I guess it could be even easier, just exit WitE without saving, dunno have never done this. Actually, there seem to be plenty of opportunities for cheating?

This kind of count would make sense, as long as it does not count reloads following a save. After losing a few turns as described above, I ususlly save a couple of times during each turn at this point, and then reload the turn (because the server games exit when you save).

[Ikazuchi0585]

A lack of Recon flights is good way to tell if a German opponent is cheating. 10 turns into Leningrad scenario, and my german opponent hasn't used recon once. kinda fishy since recon is a very important aspect of the game.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Server games appear to minimise the possibilities for cheating, that is good.

How so? A couple of times my computer has crashed during a server game turn and I've had to start the turn over, and my moves were not saved. If I really wanted to, I supposed I could just turn my computer off every time I wanted to play a turn over. I guess it could be even easier, just exit WitE without saving, dunno have never done this. Actually, there seem to be plenty of opportunities for cheating?

This kind of count would make sense, as long as it does not count reloads following a save. After losing a few turns as described above, I ususlly save a couple of times during each turn at this point, and then reload the turn (because the server games exit when you save).

Normal saves and loads in server games is not a problem, just because the game shuts down after a save.

I am talkning about PBEM games. It would not be possible to count wether the load was after a legit save or after exiting without saving, that is in the nature of things, as the computer would not "know" this. It would however be possible to count the number of loads in total, though it would require the program to write to the just loaded file.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: dbfw190

A lack of Recon flights is good way to tell if a German opponent is cheating. 10 turns into Leningrad scenario, and my german opponent hasn't used recon once. kinda fishy since recon is a very important aspect of the game.

I wouldn't say that means your opponent is cheating. As you say, recon is essential, and he would want your forces reconed even if he was redoing his turns. And any shrewd cheater would just make the recon flights, then save and redo his turns from there. It might mean that your opponent needs to learn about recon.

[Joel Billings]

We had a load count system in PBEM for our Civil War game, but found it only partially effective. We decided to skip the load count system in WitE and instead offer Multiplayer for those interested in increased security (where the number of loads and saves can be tracked).

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: vlcz
Not sure I fully understand the diference between load and reload, but I think we are refering the same [;)]

A reload is when a saved file is loaded 2 or more times.
If your make or break low odds attack doesn't work, you just reload until you get a lucky roll of the dice.

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I guess it could be even easier, just exit WitE without saving, dunno have never done this. Actually, there seem to be plenty of opportunities for cheating?

Yes that would work.I did it the first time I played on the server before I understood how to save.

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
We decided to skip the load count system in WitE and instead offer Multiplayer for those interested in increased security (where the number of loads and saves can be tracked).

Has anyone ever been cautioned for excessive reloading?
Have you got any stats on the prevalence of reloads?

[Ikazuchi0585]

either way, he's abusing the fact that you can reload a turn multiple times with absolutely no consequences and I'm getting tired of it.

the ai may not be as smart as a human, but at least its not as predictable and doesn't need to reload turns.

he's changing this game from War in the East to Reload in the East. I wish i could find an opponent who didn't need to reload each and every turn.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: dbfw190

either way, he's abusing the fact that you can reload a turn multiple times with absolutely no consequences and I'm getting tired of it.

huh? how can you be so sure about this? read tarhunnas' post...

[Q-Ball]

I bagged server games because I didn't see the advantage...but if someone is keeping track, that would be a reason to go back to it.

It would be good to know number of loads, as it would show abuse.

The old Battleground Series had "cheat-proof" PBEM, and I wondered initially why this game would not have that.

[Scook_99]

Sometimes with my busy schedule, I have saved and loaded up a game I would say 7 times. I do save as I go, so would that reset the counter in this case? If someone got a game back with 7 loads, they would (rightfully) be suspicious.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

...instead offer Multiplayer for those interested in increased security (where the number of loads and saves can be tracked).

So what exactly happens if you notice "suspiciuos activity"? Do you contact the cheating player, his opponent, both, or neither? I've never seen anyone post about this so am a bit curious (or actually a bit dubious that this is any kind of deterrent to cheating).

[mmarquo]

IIRC the Operational Art of War had a pretty good reload counter - it would show during replay how many times the saved game was restarted from the same point. Of course an inveterate cheater could just replay the entire turn rather than reload from a given point....
 
In the end, a decrepit subcreant cheater, bathed in the cold glow of a computer screen, with no other means of validating his miserable existence, can never really be stopped. Few would have the time for live H2H play of this game via the internet; so a trusted opponent or something like Slitherine are the best options. Or posting an AAR where the match is monitored on the Forum.
 
IMHO (from reading every post for > 6 months), there is 1) so much "under the hood", 2) few seem to have a great, indepth understanding of all the game's potential, 3) bugs and kinks are not yet entirely worked out, and 4) the variations of strategy and tactics are so protean such that it is hard to know if one is being scammed or not.
 
Marquo [;)]

[marcpennington]

ORIGINAL: Scook_99

Sometimes with my busy schedule, I have saved and loaded up a game I would say 7 times. I do save as I go, so would that reset the counter in this case? If someone got a game back with 7 loads, they would (rightfully) be suspicious.

I would assume it would have to take account the number of time one saves the turn--- I know I for one never do a game in one sitting and save multiple times throughout the turn, and then load from the save. But a count of number of loads minus number of saves, which should in theory equal 1 if one is not cheating (barring the occasional crash of course, which I'm sure could be explained in a quick e-mail to ones opponent) would seem a great additional security feature. It would also be hard to get around without hacking into the server itself, which I imagine is something the majority of us would be unable to do.

Would be easy, I would imagine, to place the number in the logistics report.

[timmyab]

There seems to be a fundamental lack of understanding on the forum of the difference between a save that's loaded and reloaded.

ORIGINAL: Marquo
Of course an inveterate cheater could just replay the entire turn rather than reload from a given point....

This would still count as a reload in a server game.

ORIGINAL: Scook_99
Sometimes with my busy schedule, I have saved and loaded up a game I would say 7 times. I do save as I go, so would that reset the counter in this case? If someone got a game back with 7 loads, they would (rightfully) be suspicious.

Loading a save doesn't count.It's loading the same save more than once that points towards cheating.

ORIGINAL: map66
I would assume it would have to take account the number of time one saves the turn

I don't know for certain but each individual save probably has a unique number so that if the same save is loaded more than once it will be obvious.