New GC strategy, destroying Soviet Units

[CarnageINC]

I'm trying out a different strategy then to drive deep into the vast Russian plains. I'm trying to destroy as many Soviet divisions as possible. I'm on turn twelve and I'm averaging 21.5 divisions per turn and that's with 4 lean turns with 8-11 bagged per turn. Is this enough to blunt the first winter offensive? Has any one tried this strategy yet and how did it turn out?

[jjdenver]

I think it's the basic de facto German strategy. My understanding is that only Leningrad is a realistic geographic objective in 1941 that will harm the USSR. Other than that it's all about bagging Soviet units.

[karonagames]

A rough guide, and it is very rough, because of changes that have been made since my last test, is that if you get to December with less than 2.5million captured men, you will face a bit more than historical pressure in the first winter, over 3million, it should be less.

Getting Leningrad and freeing up the Finns, definitely helps you to put a better than historical first winter defense together.

[ComradeP]

Also keep in mind that size matters too. Bagging boatloads of unready units with minimal TOE's isn't really going to put much of a dent in Soviet manpower strength. Bagging a well supplied army each turn as well as some other units causes a problem.

Personally, I'm not convinced you can really beat the Soviets down against a competent player that avoids pockets.

[karonagames]

Yes, the guide figures applies to AI games, based on the numbers I was playing in my blizzard tests. Head to head will always be a different story.

[Arstavidios]

You make big bags in the first few turns.
after that you start outruning your supplies and face understrength units, so pockets become less frequent and juicy

[ComradeP]

I'd be surprised to see a true line of units prior to August after the initial pockets.

[blastpop]

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

I think it's the basic de facto German strategy. My understanding is that only Leningrad is a realistic geographic objective in 1941 that will harm the USSR. Other than that it's all about bagging Soviet units.

So other than capturing Leningrad, would you say its a better strategy to Bag Russians say to the Smolensk area, defeating as many reinforcing units as possible, and maintaining a better German army less damaged by a winter counter offensive and occupying an area further west than historical?

I'm thinking that a relatively intact German army might be able to lead a general offensive across the entire front in 1942 and not just one sector as occurred historically.

[karonagames]

I honestly don't think there is any such thing as a "best" strategy. The biggest strength that this game has, and the single biggest reason why I love it as much as I do, is that the games self balances - for every action there is a reaction.

If you get Leningrad, the extra resources you will have to use mean they won't be available in the south and you will struggle to get the Donbas and Rostov.

The time it takes creating and cleaning up pockets reduces your rate of progress towards Moscow and Kharkhov, so Kharkov produces more T34s for longer etc. etc. the list of checks and balances is endless.

We have not seen enough games to know exactly how weak the soviets will have to be by the start of the first winter to significantly reduce the damage the Axis will suffer. I put out some speculative numbers in another thread based on the 6 Blizzard tests I did, and the relative strengths that I saw.

So while you may pocket large numbers, if you are not taking out the manpower and factory cities at the historical rate or better, then they can can easily replace the losses, as the manpower multiplier in 1941 is huge.

[ComradeP]

"Huge" as in: provided you bag about 800.000 men in turn one, which is about the maximum you can get through pockets, the Soviets will replace that in less than two months, depending on future combat losses. You need constant pockets to truly reduce their strength and of course your opponent isn't going to let that happen.

I have started to develop a new strategy for 1941, which I'll test in my PBEM with notenome, and it's going to be quite different from what others have done before, and not just due to my dislike for artillery battalions[;)].

Also Bob: provided you evacuate the entire factory, it shouldn't really matter in terms of production when, say, the T-34 factory in Kharkov is evacuated. Over time, it will just get more expensive to evacuate. I'd actually strongly like to encourage the Soviets to evacuate early due to that reason. After about 4 months, the factory should be fully online again, just in time to provide the Tank brigades with new vehicles.

[jjdenver]

I've read about the problem w/ air terrors from the red air force in 42 or 43 and later. Any word on how quickly this will be addressed? It'd be a shame to play a campaign into 42 or 43 then have something clearly unbalanced (at least this is how its been described) sink the campaign.

[ComradeP]

Difficult to tell, at least the Luftwaffe supposedly does something to intercept the tactical bombers in the latest version. The cause of the issue will need to be found before it can be ironed out hopefully once and for all.

[Texasgrunt]

I am willing to give up Rostov in the first year to insuee I get a very strong push to take Leningrad and also Moscow. Ity can be done vs the AI even in ver 1.03, but you have to bag a LOT of Russians - we are talking about 4.5 million by November.

Routing units east is fun but 75-80% of the men and equip recover and eventually are able to make a stand. You need to trap them and make them surrender.

Then you can simply shoot the prisoners (but this is not part of the game).........

[mmarquo]

Well, there maybe something to be said for not eliminating Soviet units until such time as they can no longer longer automatically regenerate in time for for the blizzard offensive i.e. prior to November. It takes a minimum of 4 turns for an infantry unit to come back - so if timed right, maybe the Soviet can be deprived of the units needed to absorb the growing manpower. The blizzards start in December, maybe the big kessels should start October and be terminated by the end of November? This would require restraint, but maybe if timed right???  Kick'em east from June - September...
 
Marquo

[smokindave34]

In my latest game as axis versus the AI I focused only on pocketing Soviet units in an effort to cripple his manpower. As I progressed through 41 with this strategy the Soviets did not have enough available forces to defend both Leningrad and Moscow and I subsequently captured Leningrad and freed up the Finns. By the start of the blizzard I had killed/captured 4.4 million Soviets and althought the blizzard was still painful I came through it in pretty good shape. This has been my most succesful strategy to date as Axis.

With that being said I don't think this strategy will be nearly as effective against a human opponent. In my PBEM games as Soviet I have made it to the blizzard with about 3-3.5 million losses. I don't think any Soviet human player will allow 4 million plus losses, he'll just trade ground for time....

[Aussiematto]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Also keep in mind that size matters too. Bagging boatloads of unready units with minimal TOE's isn't really going to put much of a dent in Soviet manpower strength. Bagging a well supplied army each turn as well as some other units causes a problem.

Personally, I'm not convinced you can really beat the Soviets down against a competent player that avoids pockets.

I would second that. I have just conducted or am doing three offensives in 1941 as the Axis player vs human players. All three have used a variation of run to the Dnepr. There are no pockets to be formed. Only in one, did I manage to get a pocket around Smolensk, captured Leningrad (late, admittedly), the Crimea and all of the Donbas, set solid defence lines and basically, already after 1 blizzard turn, I am screwed. The other two games... too early to tell.

I play the Axis because I am a masochist

[Balou]

In my latest game as axis versus the AI I focused only on pocketing Soviet units in an effort to cripple his manpower. As I progressed through 41 with this strategy the Soviets did not have enough available forces to defend both Leningrad and Moscow and I subsequently captured Leningrad and freed up the Finns. By the start of the blizzard I had killed/captured 4.4 million Soviets and althought the blizzard was still painful I came through it in pretty good shape. This has been my most succesful strategy to date as Axis.

Leningrad and 4.4 mio troops is a lot, but coming thru blizzard in good shape might IMO require more than that. How many of their cities with armament factories did you eliminate (factories not evacuated in time)? Recently there has been a lot of discussion about "armament" as one possible choke point. Even zillions of SU replacements are worthless without rifles and about 25% of the armament capacity in 1941 (including Stalino) is probably within reach.