The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (no Q-Ball please)

[neuromancer]

Sounds like the real war, great gains in '41, and then massive violence that resulted in almost no net difference when it was all said and done.  Except here you won't have the massive violence.  Its 1915 all over again, except its in Russia (the Eastern Front didn't end up as heavily entrenched in WW1).
 
Obviously the problem is still the fortifications being way too good. Historically there was a lot of movement and fighting that ended up close to where they started - but progress was made (Stalingrad was reached in '42 after all). Here you attack a bit, realize that you can't accomplish much against the entrenchments that would have shocked a WW1 commander, and so you just decide to go on the defensive.
 
Like you said, if you end up just sitting there staring at each other until '43, building up fortifications until the Soviets have an insane force that can't be stopped, its going to be a pretty dull game. But I don't think you have much choice against that much force in those kinds of trenches.
 
Humph, and there were people telling Q-Ball he should quit because he had lost too much territory.

[Mynok]

Q-ball is going to have issues too. He will not have the armaments to build enough artillery and rifle corps until well into 43. Tarhunnas needs to start building defenses in depth along whatever defense line he wants to make his stand.

The biggest problem right now is those infantry CVs. That's what's killing Tarhunnas.

[neuromancer]

He needs to rotate infantry off the line to refit to 90+% strength.
And probably rotate some of his armour and motorized units off for the same thing.
 
Don't know if he has the manpower to refit enough of them though, he has taken a lot of casualties, and the disabled pile doesn't seem in any hurry to return people to the pool.
 

[Ketza]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I don't see you making any progress against that carpet with the state of your infantry. I'd start setting up your defense lines for 43.

2 keys for future Axis players reading the AAR.

1) As tough as it may seem pull out a good 10+ infantry divisions to Germany before the blizzard. In my spring/summer campaign against 76mm I let the entire 18th army and almost all of my pioneers and artillery refit in cities and in Germany all winter. It was the tip of my spear when attack time came with many divisions in the 14-15 CV range.

2) If you cannot be in forts don not fight for useless territory. Your infantry and artillery are wasted and your CVs will never recover. Fall back just out of Soviet deliberate attack range every turn. Besides you want to let the Soviets advance so the amount of time they build forts is cut down.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: Ketza
2 keys for future Axis players reading the AAR.

The problem is that even though you're a good player and you came out of the blizzard in good shape, you still weren't able to make any major gains in 42.
I think that we are seeing what will happen most of the time when two evenly matched players get in to 1942.The Soviets are simply far too strong at this stage of the game for the Axis to mount a major offensive.Without a far ranging Axis 1942 offensive the campaign game is dead for me, there's just not enough there to hold the average player's interest on either side for three long years of trench warfare.As far as I'm concerned, the kind of position we see here should only happen when you have an outclassed Axis player, or if the Soviet player is outclassed the Axis should easily be able to force an outright win in late 42 or 43.
Somehow or another the Soviets need to be nobbled sufficiently to get the Axis mobile again in 42.The real turning point shouldn't come until the winter of 42/43.

[Baelfiin]

Maybe the soviet player can lure the germans into an attack that lasts for a month or two and then open up with an operation uranus of their own and really set the stage for some rapid gains in `43

I think there is a lot left to be explored in the late war portion of the game.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

ORIGINAL: Ketza
2 keys for future Axis players reading the AAR.

The problem is that even though you're a good player and you came out of the blizzard in good shape, you still weren't able to make any major gains in 42.
I think that we are seeing what will happen most of the time when two evenly matched players get in to 1942.The Soviets are simply far too strong at this stage of the game for the Axis to mount a major offensive.Without a far ranging Axis 1942 offensive the campaign game is dead for me, there's just not enough there to hold the average player's interest on either side for three long years of trench warfare.As far as I'm concerned, the kind of position we see here should only happen when you have an outclassed Axis player, or if the Soviet player is outclassed the Axis should easily be able to force an outright win in late 42 or 43.
Somehow or another the Soviets need to be nobbled sufficiently to get the Axis mobile again in 42.The real turning point shouldn't come until the winter of 42/43.

I agree! I have played two 41 GCs into 1942 now, both had a stalemate in early 1942, even though I feel I made better than the historical Germans in both of them. In my other game, I was eventually able to break through the Soviet defenses and do a substantial advance, but it took a lot of hard slogging and the Soviets in that game were much weaker. My impression is that the Soviets are too strong too early in 1942, and that coupled with the ability to fortify makes for a dull game of static fortifications in 1942 and onwards.

I like this game and I have had a lot of fun with it, but I doubt that I will start any more GCs as a this kind of situation is what I could look forward to after 50 or so turns.

I expect the inevitable verbal counterattack here including the usual charges of "German fanboy" and "You suck and are blaming your failures on the game". I just want to add that I really would have wanted to to play a GC as the Soviets into 1942, I have started the 41 GC as the Soviets 6 times but no German player lasted longer than turn 10. I think that in itself suggests a play balance problem. The players playing the Axis know they have to make spectacular better-than-historical gains in 1941 to even have a chance of something remotely resembling a historical 1942.

[Tarhunnas]

Turn 54. 25 june 1942. Clear.

All offensive operations have been cancelled. Mobile divisions have to a large extent been placed behind the front to refit. I have started to make my own carpet. Further operations will be based on defense and counterattack. Map of the central part of the front after Axis moves. Withdrawals have been made from the tip of some of the bulges.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
I agree! I have played two 41 GCs into 1942 now, both had a stalemate in early 1942, even though I feel I made better than the historical Germans in both of them. In my other game, I was eventually able to break through the Soviet defenses and do a substantial advance, but it took a lot of hard slogging and the Soviets in that game were much weaker. My impression is that the Soviets are too strong too early in 1942, and that coupled with the ability to fortify makes for a dull game of static fortifications in 1942 and onwards.

Your recent offensive looked more like the poor man's version of the Kursk campaign 1943. Poor since you essentially have no real Panzer arm left (I believe historically the German's at Kursk were at the peak of armored strength, right?). Though the Russian's probably are as strong in comparison either, it would look like they are substantially stronger this summer than they were historically.

Whether it's Q-Ball's good performance to save his men in 41, an overestimate of the ability to recover despite severe industry losses, your rather reckless use of armor prior to and lack of early defensive winter preparations (preserving your Panzertruppen -- though that's something the German also didn't do extensively and early on), or a combination of such factors and others captured by the game... hard to say without more results.

Nonetheless, this is an awesome AAR thus far!

[Klydon]

And so this AAR will go the way of so many others. No major German operations in 1942.

This is not to pick on either Tarhunnas or Q-Ball. Tarhunnas had a terrific summer campaign and took advantage of Q-Ball's mistakes. Q-Ball did a tremendous job of reorganizing and reallocation of forces and had a terrific winter, taking advantage of Tarhunnas's mistakes.

The give and take free melee/slugging contest of 1942 that typically takes place in a East front game is all too often missing from WITE with the Germans deciding to dig in because they quickly find out the casualties are far too high in trying to mount an operation in 1942. 4 lines of deep heavy fortifications just sucks all the fun out of the game; for both sides.

I am not a fan boy of either side and in due course I will play a Russian AAR after I finish my German one at some point, but right now, I think the game has a long way to go based on a lot of these AARs.

I will still keep an eye on this game because there is a lot to learn from both players and it is good to see a game going between two quality players, especially when both are doing AAR's on it.

One other note: At one point in March of 42, the Germans had 150 operational tanks on the entire eastern front, yet by the time of Operation Blau, they had 3000. Something to think about.

[M60A3TTS]

Putting aside the question of how 1942 plays out, I'd make two comments about how things have gone to date. One, the Axis simply didn't eliminate enough Soviets in '41. 3 million by mud was an indicator of this, and there were a good number of Axis casualties to boot. Two, a lot of people assumed Q-Ball lost a lot of industry when there was no evidence to support this. What people focused on was the dash to and eventual fall of Moscow, and that was hardly a coup-de-grace which is another case for discussion.

So where the Red Army wasn't crippled and industry not impared to a great extent I wouldn't say the needed Axis objectives were met. Add to that the evisceration of the panzerwaffe and this mini-Kursk in '42 perhaps shouldn't be so surprising.

Klydon, where did you get the 150->3000 tank info? Interesting stuff.

[Flaviusx]

For whatever it is worth, I've long been disatisfied with the way forts work, but it's remarkably difficult to find a solution to the 1942 fort spam that doesn't break the game in other times and places.

42 is the problem year here. In 41 forts are ok. We really don't want to make them any more difficult to make. Leningrad is falling in most games as is. From 43 on, the Sovs can bust fort lines once they get their rifle corps and arty divisions rolling. So you don't want to make them too hard to make there, either, or the German suffers.

In 1942, fort spam can prematurely trigger a stalemate. I also think part of the problem is that too many Soviet players fall back on carpets, instead of defenses in depth, but ultimately what's driving that is the fort spam.

[olivier34]

I would like to get 3000 tanks before summer 42 ! I would have 4500 of them, enough to destroy all the reds ! [;)]
thanks for this AAR Tarnunnas, I play a few turn "behind you" and I did learn a lot reading you.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

For whatever it is worth, I've long been disatisfied with the way forts work, but it's remarkably difficult to find a solution to the 1942 fort spam that doesn't break the game in other times and places.

42 is the problem year here. In 41 forts are ok. We really don't want to make them any more difficult to make. Leningrad is falling in most games as is. From 43 on, the Sovs can bust fort lines once they get their rifle corps and arty divisions rolling. So you don't want to make them too hard to make there, either, or the German suffers.

In 1942, fort spam can prematurely trigger a stalemate. I also think part of the problem is that too many Soviet players fall back on carpets, instead of defenses in depth, but ultimately what's driving that is the fort spam.

Forts are part of it, but perhaps should not be overemphasized. I also think the Soviets are too strong too early in 1942. Look at my other game against Gids. I hurt the Soviets a lot worse there in 1941, and had a very easy winter, but I still had to slog though a whole summer of encirclements and hurting the Soviets a lot more, and even then I didn't reach the lines the Germans did historically.

[Flaviusx]

Tarhunnas, I'm copletely ok with the results of your game with Gids which, in my estimation, you have handily won.

You broke the Red Army. The territorial situation is of no consequence whatsoever, and indeed, the smart thing, the thing you yourself did, was to concentrate on the enemy army. The real life Germans did it the other way around, and that didn't work out so well for them. They forgot their Clausewitz. (Which is highly amusing when you consider that Hitler claimed to be an authority on Clausewitz. His 1942 strategy wasn't Clausewitzian in the least.)

Now games like this which end up in turtles in 1942...these are the games that trouble me.

[gids]

im not happy with it :p

[Tarhunnas]

Turn 55 after Axis moves. Carpet wars!

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Klydon, where did you get the 150->3000 tank info? Interesting stuff.

The book is on loan to a friend, but basically it is a US Government publication I got at a US book store. It covers the campaign until the end of 1942. I have kicked myself over the years for not grabbing the second volume (covers the rest of the war). Absolutely a great read about the various plans the Germans went through before the start of the campaign and what happen during the campaign along with an accent on both the human casualties the Germans took and the material casualties they suffered as well. The key phrase for the 150 tanks is "operational", meaning in addition, they had a lot more that were not operational and in need of repairs. The book mentions what shape the PG2 and PG3 panzers were in (roughly 50-60% strength at best) when they were pulled out of the line to rehab in August before PG2's drive to the south. Another shocker is the Germans lost 75,000 trucks from the start of the campaign to the spring and only 7500 were shipped out at that point. Horse losses were also over 100,000 with 109,000 sent as replacements.

All in all, it is one of the best "short" references I have seen and it is sort of worn as I have read it over several times.

[neuromancer]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Putting aside the question of how 1942 plays out, I'd make two comments about how things have gone to date. One, the Axis simply didn't eliminate enough Soviets in '41. 3 million by mud was an indicator of this, and there were a good number of Axis casualties to boot. Two, a lot of people assumed Q-Ball lost a lot of industry when there was no evidence to support this. What people focused on was the dash to and eventual fall of Moscow, and that was hardly a coup-de-grace which is another case for discussion.

So where the Red Army wasn't crippled and industry not impared to a great extent I wouldn't say the needed Axis objectives were met. Add to that the evisceration of the panzerwaffe and this mini-Kursk in '42 perhaps shouldn't be so surprising.

But the lack of Russian casualties and lack of destroyed industry isn't the fault of the Axis player. The Russians can freely and effectively do a 'Sir Robin' and save most of their army - not to mention that any unit they do lose is given back for free and rebuilt extremely quickly - and at the same time pack up all their industry and ship it off in their kit bags, thus effortlessly saving their industry from destruction and have it all in place and working in time for the Winter offensive. There is absolutely no reason at all for the Russians not to simply surrender the Baltics, Eastern Poland, Belorussia, and much of the Ukraine. And because of those things, it is nearly impossible for the Axis to achieve the historical damage levels.

Some may argue that it was only the stupidity of Stalin that resulted in that much damage, and that if he had simply retreated before the Germans casualties would have been much lower and the war ultimately over much sooner. Therefore this is 'realistic' and is allowing the Russians to be smart where historically they were dumb.

Unfortunately - while I won't disagree that Stalin did a bunch of stupid things - this is a gross simplification. The game makes it far too easy to move industry, and there were a great many things that prevent the Russian army from being useful at the beginning of the war.

The Russian rail network was bombed to hell and didn't get put back together very quickly, the road network was clogged with civilians fleeing the German advance, Luftwaffe interdiction flights would paste any armour on the roads (this was one reason why the Kiev pocket was so big, the Russian units had great difficulty making it out of the Pripyat marshes when they couldn't use rail or road, meaning the Germans beat them to the other end), C3 quickly degenerated into chaos (cumbersome command structure, poor generals, poor communication, and a whole pile of confusing and contradictory information resulting in no one in the Red Army having any idea what the heck was really going on), poor organization and inter-unit communication and coordination, and - last but in no way least - a general lack of adequate supply.

So in the first few weeks the Russians didn't even realize they should be doing a general retreat, let alone evacuating industry from anything within a few hundred kilometres from the front. And even if they had known they couldn't get a coherent retreat going, for the most part retreats turned into general routs. Plus, the Red Army generals didn't have the ability to look at a unit on their map and go "our fresh rifle unit is out classed by their rifle unit, we'd better retreat" - they simply didn't realize that their army wasn't up to fighting the Germans, so naturally, when faced with an enemy invading their home they tried to fight (and generally did pretty poorly). Attacks and counter-offensives were launched that for some time resulted in massive Soviet casualties for only limited tactical success (at best). It was only after a few weeks that they realized they needed to fall back, and even then they wanted to keep at least harassing the Germans to slow their advance. That was when they fell into a fighting retreat and the scorched earth tactics. And even then you don't want to surrender important cities, so they fought for Kiev and other places, just because its hard to imagine doing otherwise.

In short - the entire RUN AWAY! tactic is completely gamey. In the game the Soviet player is retreating en masse right from turn 1, when in reality no army would do that. Not even the French (despite popular conception, the French actually put up a pretty good fight).


Here endeth the rant.

Please join me in saying the Grognard's Prayer...

[neuromancer]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
Another shocker is the Germans lost 75,000 trucks from the start of the campaign to the spring and only 7500 were shipped out at that point. Horse losses were also over 100,000 with 109,000 sent as replacements.

The Germans were chronically short on trucks all through WW2, and were using many trucks they grabbed up from all over - civilian vehicles, French, Czech, Polish, Belgian, Dutch... Anywhere they could grab a truck they did. But it made maintenance a nightmare.

Many of the 'trucks' in the game - particularly those assigned to regular infantry units - would have actually been horse teams.