Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+

[Peltonx]

AGS

[Peltonx]

An Idea of what CV look like. Basicly I have 1 bunch of 1 to 5 cv defending with a few higher cv mixed in. Hes got stacks of
15-20 attack cv's.

[Peltonx]

dead

[Peltonx]

OOB

[M60A3TTS]

8 million in the Red Army seems pretty high, with another 8 million casualties inflicted. It would be very interesting to know where the bottom of the Soviet manpower pool really is.

[Baelfiin]

Hang in there Pelton, its a long way to Berlin.

Are you getting any machineguns into your units?

[Peltonx]

There is no "bottom" to manpower pool. Its based on production. From what I am seeing at the very core of the game its based on armerments production. Larry had huge numbers of troops and other poeple I have played for that matter, but I destoryed more then 100 pts of ARM production. So their armys had 1/2 the attack CV pts Hoooper has during the summer of 42. Therefor I could atleast have a historical 42 or better.

I am playing game out for sure.

I have leart allot and figured it be good for devs to see the end results.

Germans have fun for 5 months and possibly 10 if things go good in 41. The next 37 months you just hang on.

As can be seen in this game and others if as the German your not getting at least 3-1 in kills your done as German. Because of the 1v1 = 2v1 rule defending you never get better then 2 - 1 kills. When your forsed to retreat you lose allot of guns and guns are the key to cv values.

Pelton

[Q-Ball]

Thanks Pelton for documenting....there are alot of levers to push-pull in this game, and we need to be careful about what we ask for in adjustments; an overcorrection would be as bad.

That being said, I think the Germans need some help. Not sure what the answer is; Arm production, or changing that odds rule after Feb 1942 (where I think it is valid until then), or morale, or whatever.

Making the Germans too strong is an issue as well, because if the Soviets can only advance one hex a time, they won't make it to Berlin.

Tough balance; I'd like to see more games into 1944 before major changes are made to German production, though if you have no Armaments, you need to post your production screen

[molchomor]

Please post a screenie of you german production pool (arm + manpower)...

Don't let the total manpower figure fool you, most of that will be Italians, Slovakians etc. that are of zero relevance.

[Flaviusx]

I would say that if the Germans are finding armaments a bottleneck rather than manpower, that this is most definitely odd. It should be the other way around.

[Peltonx]

The bottleneck for the Russians is ARM pts. If I am able to get at least 100 destoryed arm pts they can't build art like crazy and therefor there ToW's are MUCH lower. This means the Russian player can't get a 1v1 = 2v1 attacks in 50+ spots.

Once the German army has less then 16k rifle squads the games over other then moving 2 to 6 hexes a turn towards Berlin. The German army should not be able to be broken in early 43. There was zero fighting in 42. I dug in an saved ToW for the 42 - 43 winter. For that matter almost all of the 2 million deaths were from turn 75 to 90 after the mud season ended.

Even with German ARM production at 320% my art numbers are dropping like mad, 100% because of the stupid 1v1 = 2v1. In 15 turns he was able to break the back of the German army in early 43. I took leningrad all factorys,Orel to Rostov, bagged 70 ARM, 37 hvy, 3.7 million dead on turn 30. Basicly zero fighting in the summer of 42 and in 15 short turns the German army is a pile of junk.
If thats not 100% unbalanced what is?

I dont thk there is anything wrong with the fort issue its simply the dum 1v1 = 2v1 rule. I beleive Production is right on.

Drop the 1v1 = 2v1 starting January 43. I thk dropping it before then would be to soon. Mybee even Febuary 43 but no later then March. This will give the Russian player a chance to bleed the german army some. Kinda like the Blizzard effects of 41-42.

Pelton
Pelton

[Flaviusx]

We're experimenting with combat engines that do away with the +1 stuff, btw. I have never liked the rule, and if it was up to me, it would go away in January of 42 at the latest, I don't think it's needed past that if at all.

[Peltonx]

Hmm Mybee have it during the 42-43 blizzard. The Red army will need some help at some point to bleed the German army some.

[Encircled]

When do the Soviet manpower shortages kick in?

[Peltonx]

I dont beleive there are any, the games based on production levels. If you have x population and z arm pts you can arm 110k new recriuts a turn as the russian.
German the same thing, The Problem is as German you are stuck with historical levels of production. The Russians can make more infantry and guns then was historical so they can exploit the system so to speak.

Manpower never drops off, unless you take a city, but even then it magicly gets rebuild.

Which is another way this could be stopped, not let poeple migrate or allot less.

Pelton

[Flaviusx]

Each year the manpower multiplier goes down for the Sovs. If the Germans do well in 1941, the Sovs are going to be getting 100kish per turn in 42. I'm guessing that means 80kish a turn in 43, etc, assuming no changes in manpower production.

[Encircled]

That will affect him long term then, assuming you can last that long.

[Peltonx]

Its 43 and he took 2,000,000 losses in 20 turn and the size of the red army increased by 990,000.

I suck with math, but thats 149,000 men a turn. A hell of allot more then 80k a turn.

[Peltonx]

Post 5 and 6 Turn 70 and Post 83 and 84 turn 91

[Flaviusx]

Pelton, some of that is disabled returning to action. You have to separate the disabled returns from new manpower production.