Forts in 42

[Klydon]

And the last two turns

[Klydon]

So I stay up late last night to get this done, thinking it should at least get a few comments/observations and I get on this AM to find.. nothing.

No comments about how absolute dog meat units with a 1-3 construction value can have level 2 forts in 2 turns across a good section of territory and level 3 forts start popping a couple of turns later.

If this doesn't make it clear in spades that there are issues with how fort construction works in this game and why it is so easy and simple to put up multiple rows of level 3 and 4 forts, then I don't know what will.

This is bad enough under normal conditions. When the Russians reach critical mass in terms of numbers of units where they can just have any crappy unit behind the lines digging like a pro and it results in heavy fortifications in nothing flat, then it turns into something very broken indeed.

[Q-Ball]

Klydon, I think you're referring to the Urban bonus. In the open, those units wouldn't accomplish much as you know.

I think a simple fix would be to decrease the range of the urban bonus. I agree that 8 hexes in every direction from every city covers half of Russia. It's too much.

I don't have a problem with small units constructing forts within that zone, because after all, many defenses were contstructed with no units in the hex.

But there needs to be a limit; maybe 3 hexes? 8 is too much.

[Klydon]

The urban bonus would be a start, but even 3 hexes is a fair amount if you look at the line south of Kaluga (which is why I put it there as a test). The line south of Kaluga is not quite as good or fast as what is in front of Moscow, but the line does have Kaluga, Tula, and Orel to draw on to help. Even if you knock the range down to 3, look at how much would still be covered along that line. It is still a lot. The guys down south are also getting help from sappers and RR construction guys. I put that line down there because someone mentioned the seeming ease of having fort spam even in the middle of nowhere. The other thing about this would be is there evidence as to how far the urban help came out on a consistent basis to help with field fortifications? 80 km one way is a long way to go, especially if it happens to not be along a rail line. How are they getting there and digging and getting back or did they stay on site? Finally, I don't see much help coming from urban workers during cold weather, but my guess is there is nothing in game about this.

Originally, I had thought that some sort of match multiplier on a unit might be the way to go (unit there has a construction value of 10 for instance and the max help they can get from urban construction bonus would be 10). I don't know now if that would work very well because clearly the Russians had civilians out digging ditches on a wide scale in certain areas of the country. The other thing I was thinking about with the Urban bonus is it reflects the use of raw labor; women and children digging ditches. Is such labor capable of siting and constructing more complicated field fortifications? Perhaps some sort of penalty for building over level 2 fortifications.

All in all a big headache to program, but getting it figured out would likely help restore a lot of the playability in 1942 and even late in 1941 where this issue starts showing up due to the huge amount of units the Russians start having show up. (The late 41 masses of fortifications almost guarantee no snow offensive).

[Klydon]

*edit* Double post because Klydon hasn't had enough coffee yet. [:D]

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The other thing I was thinking about with the Urban bonus is it reflects the use of raw labor; women and children digging ditches. Is such labor capable of siting and constructing more complicated field fortifications?

It is. Many of the major fortification lines were built using such civilian labor, including the Luga line, the Mozhaisk line, and the infamous Kursk fortifications. Note that said labor was being directed and supervised by professional Red Army engineers.

That said, I hear what you are saying with regards to the coverage.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

So I stay up late last night to get this done, thinking it should at least get a few comments/observations and I get on this AM to find.. nothing.

I read it but didn't understand what the numbers on the maps meant, and I was afraid to ask cuz that might make me seem stupid...[8|]

[Klydon]

In game, if you put your mouse over the unit, the box pops up and tells you the unit name, etc and also what the fortification percentage level is. So for instance, if a unit has a level 2 fort showing and a number next to it, that means it is that percent complete of a level 3 fort. In other words if a unit has a level 2 fort and "54" next to it, that means it is level 2 fort, 54% (just over halfway to a level 3 fort).

Hope that helps; if not, I will try to explain it better with another screen shot. [:)]

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
Hope that helps; if not, I will try to explain it better with another screen shot. [:)]

Np, I get it (finally). [:)]

[M60A3TTS]

I think you have to at least make the distance for civilian fort assistance 3 from an urban hex. That may mean Moscow and the surrounding area build a lot of forts, but anything less and the defense of Moscow in '41 could be a lot more problematic for the Soviets. Leningrad is already lost in most cases even with the current rules. On the other hand, 3 hexes will give the Germans a better chance at launching Blau in '42, especially if Rostov and Voroshilovgrad end up in Axis hands. The only other city along the Axis line of advance to the east is Boguchar. Next stop is Stalingrad.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

I've posted this elsewhere, but am copying it here, since it is germaine to the discussion...

With regard to the fort issue, I still believe that the most elegant solution to this problem is to restrict the ability to transition from level 2 > level 3 fort to those hexes that have a FZ, FR, City, or Urban terrain feature present in the hex. This would be the simplest to code.

For the Soviets in 1941/1942, it would create some tough decisions as to how they should allocate their precious AP pool. Early on, it would force a decision between setting up some prime rear area locations (Leningrad's "backdoor", Perekop Isthmus, etc.) for Level 3+ building, and the creation of the "Soviet All-Stars command reshuffle, and the typical restoring of the C&C disaster in the first few turns. Later on, it will create AP spending tension for setting up good belts around important locations, and the need to conserve APs for the transition to the more "modern" Soviet Army structure. At present, there is little in the way of resource spending tension in these crucial points in time, as the Soviets (as demonstrated) can simply carpet their rear areas and have 50-70 mile thick bands of level 3-4 forts across virtually the entire front by the time Summer 42 rolls around.

The argument that the mid-to-late war Axis *needs* to be able to build high level forts is not negated by this proposed change and indeed, the Axis really have little to spend their APs on in that period. Requiring them to build the FZs to break the Level 3 threshold will be most felt in the need for replacements to go into the FZs (at least temporarily) as they are built, reducing the manpower and armaments to flesh out their army. However, this is still, in my opinion, a more realistic condition, reflecting the redirection of resources on their side.

I must've missed whatever discussion that was on originally.
+1
Eloquently thought out.

[highblooded]

Hello,

I suspect the static units are there to stop players doing unhistorical things like attacking all along the front.

Not sure of why the designers placed them in static but in reality, by 1942 the german truckpark had been decimated. For Barbarossa they had 3x20,000 vehicle supply groups (one for each Army). To get this amount many Inf Divs had to give up trucks and make do with handcarts. Most of these vehicles were captured French/British/Civilian etc. The Russian roads took a terrible toll on them and the lack of parts finished many more. I noticed over 200,000 in the starting motorpool for '41 Campaign. From what I have seen this should be very reduced in the game.

The spamming of Sappers/engineers by the Soviet player in AARs and guides seems overboard. Increase the cost or cap to get closer to reallife levels. Qualified engineers for officers dont grow on trees. The soviets may have just stated "Hey you... you're an engineer now" but it does not mean he can get people to build forts.

The major fort building unit sounds like a good idea. Limiting combat units to level 2 is great(and have it take longer as well?). Combat Units should not be able to train or refit while digging in... period.

The limiting of the city bonus to Moscow and Leningrad may solve part of the problem( or to just Heavy and Light Urban hexes). As well as decreasing the distance it works at.

My initial thoughts.

[randallw]

Freshly made Soviet eng/construction units do have a low experience, probably about 20 or 30.  Should that be considered too high?

[Tarhunnas]

"The extensive field fortifications that had been constructed by Soviet troops and civilian labor proved useless because of shortages of skilled engineers and of barrier materials". Glantz & House "When Titans Clashed" p 120, describing the Soviet difficulties in stopping the German 1942 offensive.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

"The extensive field fortifications that had been constructed by Soviet troops and civilian labor proved useless because of shortages of skilled engineers and of barrier materials". Glantz & House "When Titans Clashed" p 120, describing the Soviet difficulties in stopping the German 1942 offensive.

Quite so. But a little context might help -- this was with regards to the lines scratched out in the south in 1942. You are reading the book a bit selectively.

The same civilian labor threw up very good lines elsewhere and at other times. See their comments on the Moscow and Leningrad lines built with civilian labor as opposed to the hasty foxholes of September 1941 the Western Front was in sans said labor.

Civilian labor mattered, and the deepest and most effective fort systems were built with them.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

"The extensive field fortifications that had been constructed by Soviet troops and civilian labor proved useless because of shortages of skilled engineers and of barrier materials". Glantz & House "When Titans Clashed" p 120, describing the Soviet difficulties in stopping the German 1942 offensive.

Quite so. But a little context might help -- this was with regards to the lines scratched out in the south in 1942. You are reading the book a bit selectively.

The same civilian labor threw up very good lines elsewhere and at other times. See their comments on the Moscow and Leningrad lines built with civilian labor as opposed to the hasty foxholes of September 1941 the Western Front was in sans said labor.

Civilian labor mattered, and the deepest and most effective fort systems were built with them.

Not reading selectively, just quoting selectively [;)]

Seriously, I meant it to be in the context of effectiveness of forts in 1942, it was not intended to dismiss civilian labor, just to point out that forts apparently didn't always live up to their expectations.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: randallw

Freshly made Soviet eng/construction units do have a low experience, probably about 20 or 30.  Should that be considered too high?

I would have to do some checking, but I think this does affect the construction value. I noticed newer sappers/RR engineers don't have as good of a construction value as ones who have been around for awhile and the spread is pretty good from below 20 to over 40 for the RR guys.

[Sorta]

+1

ORIGINAL: highblooded

Hello,

I suspect the static units are there to stop players doing unhistorical things like attacking all along the front.

Not sure of why the designers placed them in static but in reality, by 1942 the german truckpark had been decimated. For Barbarossa they had 3x20,000 vehicle supply groups (one for each Army). To get this amount many Inf Divs had to give up trucks and make do with handcarts. Most of these vehicles were captured French/British/Civilian etc. The Russian roads took a terrible toll on them and the lack of parts finished many more. I noticed over 200,000 in the starting motorpool for '41 Campaign. From what I have seen this should be very reduced in the game.

The spamming of Sappers/engineers by the Soviet player in AARs and guides seems overboard. Increase the cost or cap to get closer to reallife levels. Qualified engineers for officers dont grow on trees. The soviets may have just stated "Hey you... you're an engineer now" but it does not mean he can get people to build forts.

The major fort building unit sounds like a good idea. Limiting combat units to level 2 is great(and have it take longer as well?). Combat Units should not be able to train or refit while digging in... period.

The limiting of the city bonus to Moscow and Leningrad may solve part of the problem( or to just Heavy and Light Urban hexes). As well as decreasing the distance it works at.

My initial thoughts.

[Tarhunnas]

One thing that could be changed with forts IMHO is the ability of units with high engineer support to dig in to level 1 after taking a hex. That makes it impossible for the opposing player to conduct swift counterattacks against advancing units and leads to players maximising engineer and sapper support in order to dig their way forward. I think it should not be possible to construct forts unless the hex was under your control at the beginning of the turn.

[Karri]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

One thing that could be changed with forts IMHO is the ability of units with high engineer support to dig in to level 1 after taking a hex. That makes it impossible for the opposing player to conduct swift counterattacks against advancing units and leads to players maximising engineer and sapper support in order to dig their way forward. I think it should not be possible to construct forts unless the hex was under your control at the beginning of the turn.

The first thing infantry does when it stops, is dig in. Can't recall how long it takes to build proper fortifications...a week is more than enough for foxholes and trenches.