Following the flow of a debate on the main forum page, i was wondering if it could be possible to change the way the emergency reinforcements are made nowdays.
Now if Japan crosses one of the LODs an emergency convoy arrive, bringing in a number of divisions + a number of devices (planes, squads etc...)
Having experienced this system in my campaign i do think, at least for what concerns the Indian LOD, that it's not enough, at least concerning planes.
The "once for all" actual system (that gives you a limited - and small - number of aircraft) doesn't really change anything.
Or better...we get the spits VIII in mid 42 (which is more than one year before this plane could even exist) and we get only 72 hurricanes MkIIa...and that's all.
A better way, imho, to model the changement in the brit gov priority (facing the risk of losing the whole India), could be to boost - in some way - the british monthly production. Don't give me 72 UFO-Spitfires, but instead give me 100 hurricanes monthly....something like that...
What do you think?
Emergency reinforcements
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: Emergency reinforcements
It would be nicer, but not worth the large code-rewrite that would be needed for something like this.
The AE-Wiki, help fill it out
RE: Emergency reinforcements
I do think there's already space in the code. In all my Op-reports there's a line that say:
"India is invaded! Counter invasion force is released"
I think there's a supply convoy - actually empty - that is scheldued to arrive every day at Aden. If you simply fill that convoy with troops and planes...there you have a "production" boost ...give it 3 hurricanes and 1 spit MkVc and you have 90 hurricanes and 30 spits every month in pool!
"India is invaded! Counter invasion force is released"
I think there's a supply convoy - actually empty - that is scheldued to arrive every day at Aden. If you simply fill that convoy with troops and planes...there you have a "production" boost ...give it 3 hurricanes and 1 spit MkVc and you have 90 hurricanes and 30 spits every month in pool!
RE: Emergency reinforcements
ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
I do think there's already space in the code. In all my Op-reports there's a line that say:
"India is invaded! Counter invasion force is released"
I think there's a supply convoy - actually empty - that is scheldued to arrive every day at Aden. If you simply fill that convoy with troops and planes...there you have a "production" boost ...give it 3 hurricanes and 1 spit MkVc and you have 90 hurricanes and 30 spits every month in pool!
Well, if you can find this convoy somewhere in the editor it would be nice, but it seems a lot more likely that the message is simply repeated every day without additional reinforcements being released.
The AE-Wiki, help fill it out
RE: Emergency reinforcements
The convoy is also mentioned in the ground reinforcement scheldue.... i think it can be done easily...but i'm not at ease with the editor so i really don't know the implications...
RE: Emergency reinforcements
Can you show a screenshot of the reinforcement schedule ?
The AE-Wiki, help fill it out
RE: Emergency reinforcements
Very strange, there is only one 'Emergency Convoy' defined in the editor and you already got that one. This does look like a question a dev should look at at.
The AE-Wiki, help fill it out
RE: Emergency reinforcements
For the reasons listed below, I for one would be opposed to any increase in the assets made available to the Allied player when the “Emergency Reinforcements” (“ER”) are triggered.
Essentially my objection stems from the viewpoint that AE attempts to be historically accurate. The devs have made a very determined effort to have accurate OOBs. This can be readily seen in the very considered Allied aircraft production runs and the different permanent/temporary restricted HQ treatment of units. Players of AE are not being asked to refight the Pacific War exactly as it occurred between 1941 and 1945, but they are tasked with handling a conflict between team Red (the Japanese Empire) and team Green (the USA and its allies) using the tools available to the historical protagonists. This includes having to employ those assets within the framework constraints, both technological and political, of that era which impacted upon the operations of the real historical protagonists.
1. There is also a philosophical aspect to my objection which applies more strongly to the historical scenario 1 (and the 8th Dec scenario) but less so to scenario 2 which already has been designed to introduce a degree of unhistorical elements to assist the Japanese player. I’m fully aware of the reasons advanced to justify having any Allied ER when certain “Lines of Death” (“LOD”) are crossed by the Japanese player. Whilst the justification for ERs is plausible and something I am prepared to live with, it is nonetheless a quite arbitrary decision and contrary to what some would have you believe, ER would not necessarily have occurred in real life. Consider these issues:
(a) Just because the enemy crosses the LOD, which in itself is a very arbitrary set of coordinates to trigger the ER, it takes weeks to reassign, redeploy and reprioritise units in order to send them to a new theatre. If Churchill did have in mind a LOD in India which if crossed, he would release units from their other pressing commitments, those units would simply not appear magically at Karachi and Aden 24 hours after the crossing of the LOD. Particularly in 1942, the Allies simply did not possess a lazy and unemployed strategic reserve ready for redeployment to the Pacific no matter how critical the situation had become.
(b) Some of the units contained in the Indian ER were units employed in the British invasion of Madagascar. As such these units were already a de facto strategic reserve and more readily available than the situation which applied to other units and alluded to in point (a) above. However this freedom of employment is only historically tenable up to the point in time they were actually committed to fighting in Madagascar. Hence I have no qualm about them being made available as ER if Japan crosses the Indian LOD in January 1942; I do have qualms about them being made so available if Japan crosses the Indian LOD in August 1942. In other words the current ER arrangements are static and do not reflect the real world dynamics. Of course it would have meant a lot of additional extra work for Andy Mac, and I for one fully understand why he made his ER static, but if we really want them to be consistent with the rest of AE, then the ER should be dynamic, based on date of activation.
2. It is one thing to advance in justification of the emergency reinforcements that somehow, and quite miraculously, units from other theatres should become immediately available. It is another thing to introduce an intellectual inconsistency. Other than for play balance purposes, a concept I view with very dubious eyes, in scenario 1 I see absolutely no other plausible justification for including, in an Indian ER triggered in February 1942, British Spitfire VIII aircraft which otherwise are not introduced into the game until very late in 1943. I have two particular difficulties with this design decision:
(a) Why not include British Tornadoes or Harrier jump jets in the ER. The simple fact is that if a particular aircraft model is deemed to be available only from a set date then no exemplars should be made available before that production date. The only intellectually honest exception would be to make available in the ER an air unit already equipped with the Spitfire VIII but otherwise deployed in out of theatre.
(b) It takes time to retool an aircraft factory to produce a new aircraft model. The retooling results in a loss and reduction of production during the changeover and whilst the new production model is bedded down. This real world situation is not represented in the abstracted Allied industry model yet with the Indian ER we are presented with a situation where an immediate retooling occurs for only 24 hours and then the factory goes back to producing the older Spitfire V model for up to another 18 months approximately. Surely if these ER 72 Spitfire VIII planes are available from the factory in say February 1942, the logical step is to bring forward their scheduled production run whilst the enemy remains beyond the trigger LOD because until the enemy has been pushed back the dire situation which warranted the ER remains in place.
On balance I’m prepared to accept the existing ER because as it currently stands the ERs assist to deter Hail Mary plays. To further strengthen the ERs would be to penalise good play and introduces far too much subjectivity.
Alfred
Essentially my objection stems from the viewpoint that AE attempts to be historically accurate. The devs have made a very determined effort to have accurate OOBs. This can be readily seen in the very considered Allied aircraft production runs and the different permanent/temporary restricted HQ treatment of units. Players of AE are not being asked to refight the Pacific War exactly as it occurred between 1941 and 1945, but they are tasked with handling a conflict between team Red (the Japanese Empire) and team Green (the USA and its allies) using the tools available to the historical protagonists. This includes having to employ those assets within the framework constraints, both technological and political, of that era which impacted upon the operations of the real historical protagonists.
1. There is also a philosophical aspect to my objection which applies more strongly to the historical scenario 1 (and the 8th Dec scenario) but less so to scenario 2 which already has been designed to introduce a degree of unhistorical elements to assist the Japanese player. I’m fully aware of the reasons advanced to justify having any Allied ER when certain “Lines of Death” (“LOD”) are crossed by the Japanese player. Whilst the justification for ERs is plausible and something I am prepared to live with, it is nonetheless a quite arbitrary decision and contrary to what some would have you believe, ER would not necessarily have occurred in real life. Consider these issues:
(a) Just because the enemy crosses the LOD, which in itself is a very arbitrary set of coordinates to trigger the ER, it takes weeks to reassign, redeploy and reprioritise units in order to send them to a new theatre. If Churchill did have in mind a LOD in India which if crossed, he would release units from their other pressing commitments, those units would simply not appear magically at Karachi and Aden 24 hours after the crossing of the LOD. Particularly in 1942, the Allies simply did not possess a lazy and unemployed strategic reserve ready for redeployment to the Pacific no matter how critical the situation had become.
(b) Some of the units contained in the Indian ER were units employed in the British invasion of Madagascar. As such these units were already a de facto strategic reserve and more readily available than the situation which applied to other units and alluded to in point (a) above. However this freedom of employment is only historically tenable up to the point in time they were actually committed to fighting in Madagascar. Hence I have no qualm about them being made available as ER if Japan crosses the Indian LOD in January 1942; I do have qualms about them being made so available if Japan crosses the Indian LOD in August 1942. In other words the current ER arrangements are static and do not reflect the real world dynamics. Of course it would have meant a lot of additional extra work for Andy Mac, and I for one fully understand why he made his ER static, but if we really want them to be consistent with the rest of AE, then the ER should be dynamic, based on date of activation.
2. It is one thing to advance in justification of the emergency reinforcements that somehow, and quite miraculously, units from other theatres should become immediately available. It is another thing to introduce an intellectual inconsistency. Other than for play balance purposes, a concept I view with very dubious eyes, in scenario 1 I see absolutely no other plausible justification for including, in an Indian ER triggered in February 1942, British Spitfire VIII aircraft which otherwise are not introduced into the game until very late in 1943. I have two particular difficulties with this design decision:
(a) Why not include British Tornadoes or Harrier jump jets in the ER. The simple fact is that if a particular aircraft model is deemed to be available only from a set date then no exemplars should be made available before that production date. The only intellectually honest exception would be to make available in the ER an air unit already equipped with the Spitfire VIII but otherwise deployed in out of theatre.
(b) It takes time to retool an aircraft factory to produce a new aircraft model. The retooling results in a loss and reduction of production during the changeover and whilst the new production model is bedded down. This real world situation is not represented in the abstracted Allied industry model yet with the Indian ER we are presented with a situation where an immediate retooling occurs for only 24 hours and then the factory goes back to producing the older Spitfire V model for up to another 18 months approximately. Surely if these ER 72 Spitfire VIII planes are available from the factory in say February 1942, the logical step is to bring forward their scheduled production run whilst the enemy remains beyond the trigger LOD because until the enemy has been pushed back the dire situation which warranted the ER remains in place.
On balance I’m prepared to accept the existing ER because as it currently stands the ERs assist to deter Hail Mary plays. To further strengthen the ERs would be to penalise good play and introduces far too much subjectivity.
Alfred
RE: Emergency reinforcements
Nice post Alfred [:)]
I was also thinking of the Tornadoes or Harriers when I read the thread in the main forum [:D] Or Eurofighters and nuclear submarines ? Well no idea of the coding issues, but of course I would live with how it is now. But if a change would be possible it would be cool.
Btw. I did not know that LOD means Line Of Death, I always thouhgt of it as a river in India. [:)]
Here is the thread about the Spitfires btw:
tm.asp?m=2864135
I was also thinking of the Tornadoes or Harriers when I read the thread in the main forum [:D] Or Eurofighters and nuclear submarines ? Well no idea of the coding issues, but of course I would live with how it is now. But if a change would be possible it would be cool.
Btw. I did not know that LOD means Line Of Death, I always thouhgt of it as a river in India. [:)]
Here is the thread about the Spitfires btw:
tm.asp?m=2864135
RE: Emergency reinforcements
The LOD while to some extent arbitrary were chosen with some care to have a minimum impact on a playable scenario and we couldnt build in more flexibility.
Take the Australian Line its pretty far south deliberately to constrain only attempts to go for all out conquest
The Indian line was also chosen with care to allow max freedom for a Japanese player so strategically worthwhile objectives like Ceylon, Assam, Madras even Bombay can be attacked but at some point the allies would have reacted if you prefer to think of the line as being further south and the troops arrive in reaction take time to get to Aden which corresponds to the time it takes the Japanese to get to the line !!!
NZ is a slightly different case but then so are the reinforcements available which are restricted to predominantly the NZ forces in the Middle East
Re the Spit VIII's perhaps that was overkill - I didnt want to add another fighter type i.e. the Spit IX into the game but if India was that threatened the premise that the RAF would send a one off shipment of the best airframes available - as churchuill did for malta seemed reasonable given that its most likelty to occur in the time frame of July - Sept 42 this seemed the best compromise without adding additional complexity especially as we dont have the ability to add air group reinforcements to represent additonal sqns being sent to the theatre.
ps all of this is fully editable and if you dont like it delete it [:D][:D]
Take the Australian Line its pretty far south deliberately to constrain only attempts to go for all out conquest
The Indian line was also chosen with care to allow max freedom for a Japanese player so strategically worthwhile objectives like Ceylon, Assam, Madras even Bombay can be attacked but at some point the allies would have reacted if you prefer to think of the line as being further south and the troops arrive in reaction take time to get to Aden which corresponds to the time it takes the Japanese to get to the line !!!
NZ is a slightly different case but then so are the reinforcements available which are restricted to predominantly the NZ forces in the Middle East
Re the Spit VIII's perhaps that was overkill - I didnt want to add another fighter type i.e. the Spit IX into the game but if India was that threatened the premise that the RAF would send a one off shipment of the best airframes available - as churchuill did for malta seemed reasonable given that its most likelty to occur in the time frame of July - Sept 42 this seemed the best compromise without adding additional complexity especially as we dont have the ability to add air group reinforcements to represent additonal sqns being sent to the theatre.
ps all of this is fully editable and if you dont like it delete it [:D][:D]
RE: Emergency reinforcements
Very well stated Alfred.
I wonder if the Red Team could ever cross one of the LoD's if in fact they were playing with an "historical oob"? It appears that the major enticement for Red Team players is to see how far they can augment the historical OOB whilst not imploding their economy. I would surmise that a Red player who had mastered this facet of the game would also be the one to be in a position to cross an LoD.
The asymmetrical situation of a green teams rigidly "historic oob" and a red teams "augmented oob" seems to leave a bit of grey area for the developers to evaluate when constructing the emergency reinforcements for these events. Jump jets excepted.
Since these LoD events would be political shocks at the highest levels of the national governments involved, it struck me that Political Points might somehow be factored into the system.
Thinking of Churchill and Roosevelt sitting in the White House when Churchill received the shocking news of Tobruks fall. In short order Roosevelt had pried an armored division out of Gen Marshall (which was latter downgraded to 300? tanks) to send off to North Africa.
Regards;
I wonder if the Red Team could ever cross one of the LoD's if in fact they were playing with an "historical oob"? It appears that the major enticement for Red Team players is to see how far they can augment the historical OOB whilst not imploding their economy. I would surmise that a Red player who had mastered this facet of the game would also be the one to be in a position to cross an LoD.
The asymmetrical situation of a green teams rigidly "historic oob" and a red teams "augmented oob" seems to leave a bit of grey area for the developers to evaluate when constructing the emergency reinforcements for these events. Jump jets excepted.
Since these LoD events would be political shocks at the highest levels of the national governments involved, it struck me that Political Points might somehow be factored into the system.
Thinking of Churchill and Roosevelt sitting in the White House when Churchill received the shocking news of Tobruks fall. In short order Roosevelt had pried an armored division out of Gen Marshall (which was latter downgraded to 300? tanks) to send off to North Africa.
Regards;
RE: Emergency reinforcements
Alfred and all the others... i wasn't asking for an boost to the ERs. In fact i do think that an exchange between 72 spits VIII and a boost in hurricane production is a bad exchange for the allies (concerning Indian LOD obviously).
i think it's reasonable that, when even Dehli was in danger of being occupied the UK would care to send more airframes than those who are normally sent to this theatre....but anyway, i wasn't arguing about the "historical what if"...i was just asking if the reinforcements could be divided into those empty convoys that every two days appear at Aden when the indian LOD is crossed...that would be more realistic than a mass of troops and devices popping up at Aden 24 hours after the LOD crossing...
So my question was: don't you think that, instead of having 72 spits VIII and 72Hurri MkIIa all of a sudden, it would be better to have 40 Hurri MkII (whatever letter you want) monthly coming in pairs of 2 every two days with those empty emergency convoys at Aden? Spits can really change the balance, even if in low numbers...while 40 hurricanes monthly won't...but will give the allies more means to defend themself against the final threat of losing the whole of India
Thanks for answering guys
i think it's reasonable that, when even Dehli was in danger of being occupied the UK would care to send more airframes than those who are normally sent to this theatre....but anyway, i wasn't arguing about the "historical what if"...i was just asking if the reinforcements could be divided into those empty convoys that every two days appear at Aden when the indian LOD is crossed...that would be more realistic than a mass of troops and devices popping up at Aden 24 hours after the LOD crossing...
So my question was: don't you think that, instead of having 72 spits VIII and 72Hurri MkIIa all of a sudden, it would be better to have 40 Hurri MkII (whatever letter you want) monthly coming in pairs of 2 every two days with those empty emergency convoys at Aden? Spits can really change the balance, even if in low numbers...while 40 hurricanes monthly won't...but will give the allies more means to defend themself against the final threat of losing the whole of India
Thanks for answering guys
RE: Emergency reinforcements
Not a fan of ER myself. I argued against them all the way back in stock beta test days when the first incarnation was hard coded for the West Coast in case the Japan player was dumb enough to try landing there. (conversely....it also allowed Allied players to be "dumb enough" to denude the West Coast of substanital assets before the introduction of permanent restricted HQ assignments)
My central argument, then as now....is that not having a free "safety net" keeps players more honest. A player who has to garrison his rear base areas "just in case" will be less able to stack the deck at the front with every unit available for early mega offensives of which this game is well known to allow. This tendancy in fact was the genesis of the "Restricted Command" HQ that AE introduced to tone that down.
To me....the two features are not compatible as they work against each other.
My central argument, then as now....is that not having a free "safety net" keeps players more honest. A player who has to garrison his rear base areas "just in case" will be less able to stack the deck at the front with every unit available for early mega offensives of which this game is well known to allow. This tendancy in fact was the genesis of the "Restricted Command" HQ that AE introduced to tone that down.
To me....the two features are not compatible as they work against each other.
RE: Emergency reinforcements
ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
The LOD while to some extent arbitrary were chosen with some care to have a minimum impact on a playable scenario and we couldnt build in more flexibility.
Take the Australian Line its pretty far south deliberately to constrain only attempts to go for all out conquest
The Indian line was also chosen with care to allow max freedom for a Japanese player so strategically worthwhile objectives like Ceylon, Assam, Madras even Bombay can be attacked but at some point the allies would have reacted if you prefer to think of the line as being further south and the troops arrive in reaction take time to get to Aden which corresponds to the time it takes the Japanese to get to the line !!!
NZ is a slightly different case but then so are the reinforcements available which are restricted to predominantly the NZ forces in the Middle East
Re the Spit VIII's perhaps that was overkill - I didnt want to add another fighter type i.e. the Spit IX into the game but if India was that threatened the premise that the RAF would send a one off shipment of the best airframes available - as churchuill did for malta seemed reasonable given that its most likelty to occur in the time frame of July - Sept 42 this seemed the best compromise without adding additional complexity especially as we dont have the ability to add air group reinforcements to represent additonal sqns being sent to the theatre.
ps all of this is fully editable and if you dont like it delete it [:D][:D]
Andy,
I don't know the internal mechanism - how difficult would it be to add Socotra (I think it's a two hex island) to the Indian LOD?
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: Emergency reinforcements
Dont know for sure I am sure it would be easy but the compromises that were agreed on invasion reinforcements mean that I think it unlikely they will change.
Its a tough one but the point is that they are unobtrusive to normal or even aggressive play
p.s. if you dont like them they are easy to delete.
Andy
Its a tough one but the point is that they are unobtrusive to normal or even aggressive play
p.s. if you dont like them they are easy to delete.
Andy
RE: Emergency reinforcements
ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
Dont know for sure I am sure it would be easy but the compromises that were agreed on invasion reinforcements mean that I think it unlikely they will change.
Its a tough one but the point is that they are unobtrusive to normal or even aggressive play
p.s. if you dont like them they are easy to delete.
Andy
Nah - they look pretty darn good to me. Any set of solutions that you picked would have it's own drawbacks, so there is no "perfect solution" to this one.
I was just thinking about a particular tactic that has become obvious in those cases where a player goes for the conquest of India, namely that they take Socotra first - before "triggering" reinforcements by crossing the LOD in India. It seems to me that IRL the Allies would have seen the invasion of Socotra as an unmistakable sign.
I sort of wondered if changing the country code of the Socotra hexes to indicate "India" would cause those hexes to be triggers because they are already above the hex row that marks the LOD. Disclaimer - I am not looking at the game map right now so hopefully I don't have this sideways.
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home