BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod

[abulbulian]

ok, I've been looking into this for a few days now and can say without any doubts that something is buggy with axis MG, At gun, and Mortar production. I know people have brought this up before and I'm a little surprised and disappointed that this has not been addressed yet???

In my test game (playing both sides), I had this situation with one of my German Inf Div

- German armaments 100k+
- German active manpower 100k (could let this grow as playing both sides)
- unit in refit mode
- unit 10 hexes behind lines on rail network

** in 4 turns the TOE MG % did not rise at ALL! This to me suggests that something is very very wrong here. Saw this trend with all German units I was watching. If this can not be explain to me and others, I would hope this issue could be fixed???? Please?

Kind of a big deal, IMO, because so many axis units rely on MGs for their combat efficiency. I'm not sure if there exists a corresponding issue with Soviet production.

I don't think I need to add that historically light and hvy MG production would receive a decent priority for front line units. But even so, there's plenty of manpower and armaments in my test game which I why I suspect some sort of bug here.

Also, I've seen some issues with mortar and AT gun production, but not as severe.

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NOTE: results while using BETA v1.04.36

[Klydon]

The Russians have the same issues with their MG's as well. 

[jzardos]

+1
+1
+1

Yes, yes, and yes! I was going to post this issue too. What the heck is going on here? Is this some sort of regression bug? Is this a dirty little secret the developers and some testers are trying to keep from us until they can fix it?

I know patches take time, but I have proof of the same issue in my game too!

Can somebody affiliated with the game or testers please have the courtesy of letting us know what is going on and what is going to be done? Not looking for any time frame, just want to know what I'm suppose to do with my game? Do I need to wait for patch? Pref to have my units gain their needed weapons. Bad enough their morale and moral is shot to hell from the winter ... don't get me started on the blizzard crap with axis morale.... ARGGGGGGGGGGGG

[&:][:(][&:][:@]

[molchomor]

I think this needs to be moved to the tech support section ?

[ComradeP]

I don't know how this is possible either. According to Pavel, it might have more to do with too high losses than with production. However, supposedly the equipment is produced on demand with armament points, so as long as armament points and manpower are available, I can't think of a reason why the production would lag behind losses.

[kirkgregerson]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I don't know how this is possible either. According to Pavel, it might have more to do with too high losses than with production. However, supposedly the equipment is produced on demand with armament points, so as long as armament points and manpower are available, I can't think of a reason why the production would lag behind losses.

Umm, not to hurt any testers or devs feelings, but it is a problem. I just looked back on many of my turns and have seen EXACTLY the same issue happening. I can send screen shots if needed to show a unit behind lines refitting that is getting no change in MG TOE %.

That at least solves the mystery of why some of my units don't seem to grow their TOE much. I really like that compare to TOE link, shows you exactly what units are lacking. I would also agree that MGs should be built with some priority when considering armaments and manpower.

I too hope this gets looked and soon. Getting it fixed I understand if that might take longer, but should be considered a high priority bug?

[ComradeP]

Umm, not to hurt any testers or devs feelings, but it is a problem.

I'm not saying it isn't a problem, I'm saying I don't know why it happens and that it's not a logical problem as if armament points and manpower is available, the on demand system should produce the equipment.


There does seem to be an issue with the on demand production, although Pavel might've tweaked it since my last test game. The production system can overproduce elements, as when an element is damaged it seems to be registered as lost if it's in the transit pool, so the system produces a new one even though the old one isn't destroyed. For some reason, the system overproduces during the first dozen or so turns and then production starts lagging behind losses even if the armament points and equipment are available.

As of turn 9 in a game with the latest version, I've produced almost twice as many German MG's as I have lost thus far, but I expect the problem we're discussing to appear by around turn 20.

[Q-Ball]

I noted the exact same thing in my game as Soviets; I noticed that Rifle Divisions on REFIT would fill-out with everything pretty quickly, EXCEPT MGs and Light Mortars. These take awhile, though eventually they also round-out.

Flavius commented that this happens with Rockets in the Red Army as well.

[kirkgregerson]

The other very odd and bad thing is that the active pools of mgs is about 1,000. Given there is manpower, why don't my units in refit gain there mgs? What else do you need to make this happen? The units are in REFIT, on rail network, and many hexes behind the lines?

Guessing mg replacement just has for some reason a very low and incorrect replacement priority?

If this is not a bug, then what the heck is going on here????

ANYBODY?

[&:]

[davetheroad]

After a quick internet search
MG34 production
42 - 77,340
43 - 165,527
44 - 278,164
45 - 56,089

MG42 production
42 to 45 - about 750,000

If you sort of match the two guns production rates
42 - 177,000
43 - 380,000
44 - 639,000
45 - 129,000

If the production of MG34 was lower in 1941 it may well be that there is a production shortage
until the MG42 production ramps up.

[Joel Billings]

We will take a look at this. Remember, Pavel's been gone for several weeks on vacation and is just getting back up to speed on the game. We're also in the process of getting some version control software installed. I'm not sure if it will be easy for Pavel to get to the bottom of this or make changes to improve the situation, but until he looks at it we won't know. It's on his list of items to look at. If he needs a save I'm sure he'll ask for it once he's looking at the issue. I'd be surprised if this is something new. It's probably been like this for many months.

[Baelfiin]

Thanks Joel,

I have been tracking ToE, production, armaments and manpower every turn from october through January so far. I have screen shots and its on the multiplayer server if whoever needs more information/data to crunch on 8)

[Joel Billings]

I spoke with Pavel about this and we could use a few saves showing specific situations where you thin MGs and Mortars are not filling out units that are filling out with other items. He thinks most of these usually end up to be a combination of the way the on demand system works in conjunction with the replacement system along with the fact that armaments and manpower shortages can exist even when it looks like it doesn't (given the way the transit pools work). Also, keep in mind that there are many MGs built into other elements (like rifle squads) so comparing MG elements to MG production is apples to oranges (not to mention that the on demand production system doesn't allow us to match specific model production in any case). So bottom line is we need to see some saves where this problem is evident and Pavel will take a look to see if there is something that can be improved or if the situation can be explained. Please post saves in this thread if you can along with info on what units to look at. Thanks.

[Baelfiin]

I don't have the saves, its a server pbem game but I have a lot of screen shots

[Baelfiin]

more

[Baelfiin]

Last info I have, sorry pics are so ugly

[Helpless]

Save is very much appreciated. Also when comparing in-game production with historical, keep in mind that MG34/MG42 are used in many ground elements (ex. rifle squad), not only in separate MG squads.

[Baelfiin]

Can you guys get the save games from the Slitherine server? If so do you need anything from me to do so?

Otherwise the only thing I can provide are screenshots of ToE, Production and of the armaments & manpower pool.

The item of interest I am trying to illustrate is that this motorized division, on refit mode, on a rail, in germany 3 hexes away from HQ cannot replenish its ToE on MG's. Going from 44 MG's on oct 1 to 98 mg's on jan 21 , just doesn't seem right.

I can only speculate why this happens, maybe the system is looking at the future ToE change that drops MG's down to 100 ish. Maybe MG's are replenished after all other needs are met and there just wasn't enough armaments remaining to build anymore MG teams. There was a constant balance of 30k armaments and 300k + manpower in the pools every turn.

Let me know if there is anything I can help with

[Joel Billings]

Yes, we can download the latest save and one save back if we know the names of the players (if more than one game then give us an approximate start date and/or turn number).

[Baelfiin]

Ok its 41 campaign started in we started in June iirc --- Baelfiin (axis) vs Hoooper (soviet). We are up to February '43 in that game now , 36th motorized has been sent to the front. Which will probably mess things up now that it is being beat on by the soviet hordes.