Unable to fight--NO Aircraft......

[ADB123]

I've just posted my January 1943 Fighter reserve numbers in my Allied AAR. I've found ways to have fighter squadrons filled with my best planes while still having plenty of reserves. Sure, it's scenario 1, but the principle still holds. (My scenario 2 Allied pbem opponent is doing the same thing to me... <LOL>)

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: vonTirpitz

IIRC A similar thread a few months back pretty much indicated that no Jap players have yet come close to producing 'historical' levels overall (there may be some who overproduce a particular airframe beyond what was historically built but they will still get shot down by better allied planes and pilots later in the war).

You recall correctly. On one of the previous times this was discussed I asked for an example of a game (scenario 1) in which the Japanese produced significantly more aircraft than they did historically, but I did not receive a single reply to that question.

If the Japanese can consistently produce more aircraft than they did historically, while in a similar strategic situation, then it would indeed warrant a review of their production capacity. This is in relation to scenario 1, of course.

Andrew

Moreso, every allied commander complained bitterly of the lack of support (mainly aircraft, but actually most everything else as well) all through '42 and much of '43. Without Midway, it would have been MUCH worse and longer.

As stated above, it took time to convert the economy from Fords to Shermans. While Roosevelt considered diverting more the Pacific, the politics involved were daunting. Stalin was quite adamant about the support required and with the losses he was sustaining, there really was no rationale arguement. Short of losing Sydney or Aukland, I doubt any further resources would happen any sooner, and those additional resources are already largely modeled in the game (where do all those new troops get equipped from?). I think the stock game has the options well in hand for what historically might have happened. The fact is that IJ had no way to invade the West Coast, and anything they took, the allies knew they could take back after '44 when they would be producing 3:1 or better.

It was a bitter pill, particularly for egos like "I will return" MacArthur, to have to sit and run a defensive war for most of two years. That is the same pill that the allied player must swallow playing against a competent IJ player. When the allied player gets too impatient, he gets burned. Nimitz' singular quality IMHO was patience. He was able to wait until he had overwhelming force and then he put in motion a plan that was unstoppable.

Can you build a mod to have Roosevelt turn his back on Europe? Sure. Just as much a fantasy as Yamamoto taking power in the '30's and building 6 more CV's. Could have happened, but it didn't.

[Shark7]

In my experience, R&D to get the more advanced airframes early for Japan is far more important than churning out hundreds of A6M2s and Ki-43-Ic's.

Sure at first you need to ramp up your two best fighters to about 60/month production, but that can be handles simply by dropping ki-27s and a modest increase in the one you don't convert.

Honestly, the more important product to build up at first is HI points. You will need them later when you get the good aircraft and your factories are being smashed by B-29s.

[LoBaron]

Interesting debate. I always thought that a good strategy game
requires planning ahead...

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Interesting debate. I always thought that a good strategy game
requires planning ahead...

Plan! We don't need no stinkin' plan! [:D]

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Mynok

If the Jap player puts up clouds of planes they will run out of useful pilots in very short order. The Japanese constraint isn't production so much as pilot training. They have to dedicate a LOT of groups to training in order to keep up with losses.

No, I have not seen this in my game. Ark will have to confirm this but I see no shortage of high quality Japanese pilots at all. And, I have killed enough of them. In fact, with no spare planes in the pools, Allied training can fall way behind the Japanese in 42 and 43 because empty units can train but only at a very slow pace. More planes means better trained pilots-not the reverse.

My low-plane-count units train just fine. Have no clue what you are seeing to make you say that. The Allies also have vastly more groups available for training than the Japanese do, and their pilots come out of the pool significantly better as well.

I don't know what year you are in with your game or what scenario (did you say?), but a 3:2 ratio in your favor doesn't smell like you are facing highly trained Jap pilots at all. Probably more like 60ish guys with mediocre experience. That's a 42 perspective from my experience in our 2x2 game. The Allied fighters just don't seem to match up very well with the Japanese ones in that time frame.

Now if you are in 43 and using Bolts, then yes, you have a point as you should be getting much better kill ratios than that even against good pilots and top Jap airframes.

ORIGINAL: Shark7

In my experience, R&D to get the more advanced airframes early for Japan is far more important than churning out hundreds of A6M2s and Ki-43-Ic's.

Sure at first you need to ramp up your two best fighters to about 60/month production, but that can be handles simply by dropping ki-27s and a modest increase in the one you don't convert.

Honestly, the more important product to build up at first is HI points. You will need them later when you get the good aircraft and your factories are being smashed by B-29s.

Exactly correct. Capture the oil/resources, see what your max will be after repairing the oil (not the refineries), and plan your HI expansion to fully use the oil. You'll need to leave a margin for fleet usage.

PDU Off is the cure for any disgruntlement about how many planes the Japanese can build.

[mc3744]

From what I've been reading on the forum the problem, if indeed there is one, is not with Japan's capability.
They don't seem to overproduce with respect to history, they "simply" optimize significantly their production. As this is a simulation, I find this completely acceptable. Could have happened, hence I'm good.

What I find slightly incoherent is the fact that the Allies cannot. The way I see it (which is of course entirely debatable [:)]) either both players get to "optimize/change" or both go historical.

It does help game balance, but - maybe - there could be an historical scenario where both change or both don't and a balanced scenario(s) where Japan gets various types of enhancement for the sake of gameplay.

When I played Japan in WitP, my goal was to do better then history, hence losing wasn't an issue, as long as I lost "less". I completely understand that some players want the option of actually winning, not just point-wise.
I guess that it could be nice if both options were fully implemented.
Not that I don't like it as it is [:)]

[oldman45]

The US has grave shortages early in the war and if the tempo is higher than historical levels then the US will not be able to keep up with the production. It really is that simple. I am pretty confident that unless they switched production from AAF planes or built more factories there wouldn't be any more planes they could send.

[JohnDillworth]

I'd love to see a "scenerio 2" that had the same production advantages given to the Allies, but Japan has 2x the ship-building capacity. More 2nd generation fighters and 4eB's for the allies, more of those pesky Japanese CA's late in the war.&nbsp; With any luck the air-forces would eliminate each other and we would have something closer to War Plan Orange later in the game.

[AcePylut9]

Set all your "Training groups" to range 0.&nbsp; That really helps cut down the ops losses to the trainers.

[crsutton]

My US army fighter pools as of mid January 1944

[crsutton]

My bomber pools. The only bomber that is keeping pace with losses and gradually building up is the liberator. Still my pool is empty and I have some arrived units that are without planes.

[crsutton]

Info screen. He has lost a lot more planes but has flown about 800,000 more sorties than I. Viperpol pretty much knows my situation so I am not giving too much away. I don't know his pools but he might confirm that they are not exactly empty for you.

This is scenario 2 and I might add that Ark has advanced to production all of his second generation fighters. I faced my first franks in November 43 and he is grinding out plenty of them. I would be willing to guess that he is producing as many franks or more than I am producing P47s and P38s-the only army fighter that can best them.

Mind you I am not bitching. This is the scenario I agreed to play and even though it is more than I expected, I am doing just fine and we are having a great game. But all you AFBs who take this one on need to be prepared.

[Nikademus]

players do tend to maintain an operational pace far higher than in real life. That and the urge to to go on the counteroffensive as early as possible as player two tends to exaserbate issues of aircraft shortages. I recall in Joe and mine's game with the terrible two from Oz that the one biggest constraint they had which made them cautious was low aircraft pools.....not that they didn't do a bang up job of maximizing what they had. We never benefited from it as player one, though i suppose we could have been more aggressive.

[ADB123]

Wow! That's a lot of planes lost. I'm feeling antsy with losses in the mid-2K range one year earlier...

[crsutton]

Yep, my operations are completely dictated by my pools. The Allied player can take most any point because heavy bombers can close the surrounding airfields and fighters can pretty much defend a built up base once secure. At this point my best fighters are a bit better than his, but there is always a massive Japanese reaction with a swarm of fighters to deal with.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: ADB123

Wow! That's a lot of planes lost. I'm feeling antsy with losses in the mid-2K range one year earlier...

Much depends on your opponent. But a good aggressive Japanese player who understands the ins and outs of production and is not afraid of a fight is going to make the best of scen 1 or 2.

I won't even talk about my disaster in China where it is impossible to use Allied air power effectively and he has used a strong air force to grind me to dust...[X(]

[mc3744]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

The US has grave shortages early in the war and if the tempo is higher than historical levels then the US will not be able to keep up with the production. It really is that simple. I am pretty confident that unless they switched production from AAF planes or built more factories there wouldn't be any more planes they could send.

I'm sure you are right about that.
I believe however that the US would have been able to. Certainly more so than what the game already allows Japan to change from history.
The American industrial infrastructure was way more flexible and powerful than the Japanese one. And even more so if you add the entire CW.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

In my experience, R&D to get the more advanced airframes early for Japan is far more important than churning out hundreds of A6M2s and Ki-43-Ic's.

This is something I sometimes wonder about also. Has the advancing of airframes via enhanced R&D been made to easy for the Japanese in this game?

Andrew

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mc3744

ORIGINAL: oldman45

The US has grave shortages early in the war and if the tempo is higher than historical levels then the US will not be able to keep up with the production. It really is that simple. I am pretty confident that unless they switched production from AAF planes or built more factories there wouldn't be any more planes they could send.

I'm sure you are right about that.
I believe however that the US would have been able to. Certainly more so than what the game already allows Japan to change from history.
The American industrial infrastructure was way more flexible and powerful than the Japanese one. And even more so if you add the entire CW.

It isn't that the capacity isn't there, its that the political decision had been made to send to Europe. To give the allies more in 1942 than they have in game, you have to "bend" that premise. It's a pretty fundamental one.

So were more B-17's available and being built? Heck yes! hundreds. Fighters? Lots! All going to England. If Coral Sea/Midway doesn't happen and the IJ juggernaut continues (as in many games), would the decision to support England/Soviet first change? That's the point you have to get past to give any more into the Pacific.

Lotsa books and lotsa conjecture on that. It's pretty clear that Gary went with the: "Nope, barring imminent loss of either India, OZ or NZ, nothing will be diverted". Hence, you have the additional forces that come into the game. Manpower would have been local, but all of the equipment that they magically arrive with represents diversion from Europe.

I tend to support that. Everything I have read is that Roosevelt was prepared for MUCH worse than what happened in the Pacific. Coral Sea/Midway made his decision far easier to live with than he expected. MacArthur was his biggest problem, but he was safely ensconced 10,000 miles away. He sounded a lot better from that distance. [;)]