Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

[Jakerson]

What drives me mad is that axis can encircle and destroy whole soviet armies of 200 000 men just with 20 000 men (one infantry div and one panzer div). Axis just paints area around Soviet army so wide that Soviet army is isolated and cannot restore supply with slow moving rifle armies that can only move 1 or 2 hexes deep axis controlled territory. One axis panzer div could easily paint 5-6 hexes deep aroun the soviet army. Then just kills whole army with infantry div.

I just find it unrealistic that soviets cannot get any supply trough when there is hundreds of kilometers wide empty space all around them that is just painted to axis control during axis turn with their 50 movemen point panzer div.

Becose of this soviet virtually have to deploy their troops in checker board formation to minimize losses.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
I just find it unrealistic that soviets cannot get any supply trough when there is hundreds of kilometers wide empty space all around them that is just painted to axis control during axis turn with their 50 movemen point panzer div.

In real life these empty spaces would have company and battalion sized formations deployed at important road junctions.A game of this scale can't model this without turning into micro management hell so it uses an abstraction.I think it's done pretty well myself.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
I just find it unrealistic that soviets cannot get any supply trough when there is hundreds of kilometers wide empty space all around them that is just painted to axis control during axis turn with their 50 movemen point panzer div.

In real life these empty spaces would have company and battalion sized formations deployed at important road junctions.A game of this scale can't model this without turning into micro management hell so it uses an abstraction.I think it's done pretty well myself.

I agree with timmy, I think it's a very realistic way to recreate the encirclement battles of 1941. It will only work against low morale troops and no reserves.

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: timmyab


In real life these empty spaces would have company and battalion sized formations deployed at important road junctions.A game of this scale can't model this without turning into micro management hell so it uses an abstraction.I think it's done pretty well myself.

Any division, grunt or mobile, can only cover so much ground. The Germans were constantly frustrated because their 'pockets' leaked like a sieve. While the heavy equipment might not get out the men did.

And if these 'pockets' are sealed as you claim, one division breaking up to cover a 100 kilometer paper thin line, then the division counter should be removed. It is, afterall, blocking all of those important road junctions.

History in this regard was not as represented in the game. But then, we throw out time and space completely in this one so what the heck, eh?

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: Panama
Any division, grunt or mobile, can only cover so much ground. The Germans were constantly frustrated because their 'pockets' leaked like a sieve. While the heavy equipment might not get out the men did.

This could be easily simulated in the game if it was deemed necessary.For instance a proportion of the encircled manpower could escape back to the pool if the pocket perimeter was not completely covered by enemy unit ZOC.It's probably more bother than it's worth though.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

ORIGINAL: timmyab

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
I just find it unrealistic that soviets cannot get any supply trough when there is hundreds of kilometers wide empty space all around them that is just painted to axis control during axis turn with their 50 movemen point panzer div.

In real life these empty spaces would have company and battalion sized formations deployed at important road junctions.A game of this scale can't model this without turning into micro management hell so it uses an abstraction.I think it's done pretty well myself.

I agree with timmy, I think it's a very realistic way to recreate the encirclement battles of 1941. It will only work against low morale troops and no reserves.

The German Army had serious problems keeping those pockets closed in 1941.

[Jakerson]

ORIGINAL: Panama
This could be easily simulated in the game if it was deemed necessary.For instance a proportion of the encircled manpower could escape back to the pool if the pocket perimeter was not completely covered by enemy unit ZOC.It's probably more bother than it's worth though.

Isolated Soviet troops in should be allowed rout if pocket is not sealed with enemy ZOC. Routing kills large partition of heavy equipment but let’s manpower slip to safety. I just see it ridiculous that 200 000men sized Soviet Armies surrender to 10 000 Germans in one panzer div that painted hexes behind them When there is only 1 panzer div behind them holding whole area that is painted to axis control.

That is more than 20 prisoners per German soldier it is no way that can even guard that much prisoners.

Well this is just game but still.

This German painting can be countered keeping Mobile soviet formations possible tank brigades in checker board formation all across the line so they can counter paint when this painting happen sometimes even this don’t help because soviet tank brigades seem to be able to move only 1/3 of hexes in empty axis controlled hexes what German panzer div can so experience German can paint so deep in one turn that Soviet have no way to repaint it back in one turn.

This that Soviet tank brigades can advance only 1/3 of German painted hexes than Germans travel Soviet painted hexes in one turn is another thing I see lame. Soviet tanks had better mechanical design in their tracks than German helping them to move faster in Soviet terrain. Soviets also knew their own home country better than Germans so they could choose faster routes and did not get lost so much than Germans. German mobile formations being so much faster is just not Historical.

[Mynok]

Track efficiency has little do with a unit getting from one place to another successfully in war. Command and control is the critical piece to the puzzle and the Germans were light years better than the Soviets in that area.

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Track efficiency has little do with a unit getting from one place to another successfully in war. Command and control is the critical piece to the puzzle and the Germans were light years better than the Soviets in that area.

You've hit the nail right on the head. Engine/track/mechanical reliability is already built into the game anyway.
Command and control IS the decisive factor here. In 1941, only the commanders tank in a Soviet squadron had a radio anyway.
Communication in the beginining for the Soviets, was flags, and how dangerous would that be to poke your upper torso out of the turret and start waving a couple of flags about, in the middle of a battle, with a fully trained Pz III 300 yards away?

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

This that Soviet tank brigades can advance only 1/3 of German painted hexes than Germans travel Soviet painted hexes in one turn is another thing I see lame. Soviet tanks had better mechanical design in their tracks than German helping them to move faster in Soviet terrain. Soviets also knew their own home country better than Germans so they could choose faster routes and did not get lost so much than Germans. German mobile formations being so much faster is just not Historical.

No tank runs faster than its commander can think! As Mynok says, command and control and intelligence is the limiting factor, not mechanics. And why would a tanker from Voronezh know the countryside around Minsk better than a tanker from Stuttgart?

German formations could run rings around the Soviets in the summer of 1941. That they are faster in the game strikes me as highly historical.

The Germans have a hard time inflicting the historical casualties anyway in the game without needing this kind of limits. Though it is refreshing with someone saying the game is unrealistic because the Soviet are disadvantaged by rule X, usually it is the other way around. [;)]

[carlkay58]

Actually, the "leaking sieve" picture that we all have about the pockets were German Intelligence rationalization on why there always seemed to be another d*** Soviet defensive line when the numbers showed that the entire Soviet Army had been captured twice over by the end of August! Studying the new numbers and such from the Soviet Archives information that has been coming out over the past 10 to 15 years shows that the Soviets lost an immense amount of men during the first three months due to the encirclement and that those were brand new troops that kept showing up - something that the German intel just could not envision.

Remember that the Germans put the losses of Soviet men around 6 million for the war, with about a third of that occuring in the first three months. We now know that the Soviets actually lost about 12 million soldiers (and another 8 million civilians) and that about a third of those occured in the first three months. A majority of the Soviets that escaped capture became partisans or slowly made it back to the front lines several months later. Soviet archives show that the original border armies had less than 10,000 troops left from ALL of them by the start of August. So the pockets in the game work well enough over all - I just think the immediate reduction in CV (despite having ammo and other supplies on hand) is too much and that the surrounded forces (of both sides) should be able to hold out longer.

[Michael T]

I just think the immediate reduction in CV (despite having ammo and other supplies on hand) is too much and that the surrounded forces (of both sides) should be able to hold out longer.

I agree with this but there needs to be more losses from routed units. As is too many escape.

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
That is more than 20 prisoners per German soldier it is no way that can even guard that much prisoners.

There are many images of 1000s of prisoners being guarded by small groups of German guards.

[Panama]

I never bother to quote anything from before the opening of the Soviet archives. The 'sieve' reference is one of Glantz's own. Other authors since then have also made reference. I do not see any reason to doubt a reference made by several respected East Front historians.

BTW, I've seen similar pictures to that above. But there were German uniforms on the prisoners. I should also add, Italian prisoners, French prisoners, Polish prisoners. [:D]

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

In this game, you get the Lvov pocket, and a number of smaller pockets, but you will never see the likes of the Minsk and Kiev pockets after the initial Lvov pocket.

I believe this is because Soviet units route so far away. If units were only routing two or three hexes then you would have a Minsk pocket (for example)... and the game would play more on a par with history.

[carlkay58]

I have come to the conclusion over the past few days of thinking that the Rout of units out of pockets (before they become isolated) represents the "sieve" effect. This also applies to the airbase and HQ ability to displace out of isolation. Several reports from Soviet archives and generals refer to army HQs escaping pockets with 2 to 3,000 men and minor equipment after a period of time (some as long as two or more months) from the opening pockets in 41.

[tigercub]

The Rout of units running so far and lossing from what i see low losses for what has happened to them, sticks in my side like a Thorn. It just does not seem right!
 
 

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: tigercub

The Rout of units running so far and lossing from what i see low losses for what has happened to them, sticks in my side like a Thorn. It just does not seem right!

Guderian's Blitzkrieg II and Case Blue (OCS) has some special rules to deal with the same problems. Look up Tree Bark Soup, Sausages, and Breakout Movement in the game-specific rules on the OCS site. Breakout Movement is particularly interesting--infantry units not in an enemy ZOC and out of supply trace can use a special kind of administrative movement mode that allows them to move up to 250 miles in 3.5 days. (Normal administrative movement is 100 miles in 3.5 days, and operational movement is half that.)

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

I have come to the conclusion over the past few days of thinking that the Rout of units out of pockets (before they become isolated) represents the "sieve" effect.

I'm not referring to units routing out of pockets, I'm simply stating that units rout too far in general.

Look how it effects the game at the very start:

If you want to pocket as many units as possible, then you avoid combat. What?? If you rout a unit on the front line and it displaces what can only be called its full movement allowance and then "touch" them again... they rout another 6 hexes to the rear. Huh? A routed unit can be moved just like any other unit. Really?

Why does the German player end up facing incredibly thick defensive layering within 4 to 5 moves, in some cases? Well hell, it is pretty obvious, I think.

Why does the German players execute the Lvov pocket and not a Minsk pocket. Well hell, it is pretty obvious, I think.

Let me be right up front with ya'll. I enjoyed the game... for awhile. But the mechanics just don't feel right. A unit that routs over 2 or 3 hexes should be at the point of complete disintegration. It should be an uncontrollable mob. Historic pockets such as at Minsk or around Smolensk happened because the Soviets couldn't run faster than German tanks. But in this game... the Soviets can run faster than German tanks. Something is really wrong here and up to this point I have given the devs the benefit of the doubt, but to be quite honest, I've given up on the game for now because it is just too detached from reality, IMHO.

You all may disagree, fine. But that won't change my impression of game mechanics, of which Routing units are but only one.

Cheers,

Ray (alias Lava)

[Panama]

I guess it all depends on what the routing is supposed to represent. Is it the command personel moving away from the defeat and gathering what troops they can? Seven days would be sufficient for that and much of the administrative section could and did get away. Probably shouldn't end up with much heavy equipment if any. That get's left behind when the guys are running away. Hell, many of the troops won't even leave with their weapons. Some will go to the extreme of changing into civilian clothing.

When you start using full week game turns some things have to be simplified. There just isn't enough room for detail. I'm not crazy about units displacing in any game but it has it's place.