Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+

[Peltonx]

Dead

[Peltonx]

OOB

[Klydon]

Except for the territory, looks more like the spring/summer of 44. 

[Peltonx]

Yes kinda sad.

[Joel Billings]

Can we see a screen shot sorted by morale of your German motorized, mech and Panzer divisions? Then another with your German infantry divisions. I'm curious what the average morale and experience is of your German combat divisions. One thing that seems to be true is that the German morale and experience lost by spring 42 never comes back to levels they should get back to. We have some changes in the works for this, but am curious what you're seeing in 43. You can also send me a save at 2by3@2by3games.com or give me the user names of the game if it's Multiplayer. Thanks.

[Joel Billings]

Interesting that historically the Soviets lost 6.6 million men KIA/MIA/captured and in this game it's 4.8 million. That 1.8 million man difference is just about equal to the difference in the size of the Soviet army in the game versus history at this time. The Wehrmacht lost about 1.1 million in this time on all fronts (but almost all of this was on the Eastern Front), while in your game you've got 1.75 million (but this includes Axis Allies which have probably taken a couple hundred thousand losses). This doesn't explain all of the size difference of the German forces, but explains some of it. We've come to agree that the Soviets are overpowered in 42 relative to the Germans for several reasons, and are working on some changes to the game to improve this situation. But fundamentally, the Germans need to cause more losses to the Soviets then they are in most games, both in 41 and especially in 42. As I said, we're working on some ideas to make things play out better. We greatly appreciate the AAR's as they do give us some good info and data to work with. Thanks.

[Peltonx]

Attacks during mud

[Peltonx]

Thanks for reply and I sent you server info and I post morale screen shots once its my turn again.

If you need anything esle send me a pm or email.

Thanks

Pelton

[Peltonx]

I would not have a moral issue if it was not for the 1v1 = 2v1 or being at 1944 lines.

As far as losses go all the extra is from him being able to go onto a general offensive in late 42.

Moral is not the issue or forts or production for that matter.

[Peltonx]

Moral Tanks

[Joel Billings]

I disagree. Morale and experience are a problem as they are lower than they should be. No fault of yours, we just think the model was too harsh in some ways that we plan on improving.

CV is a straight multiplier of experience and morale, so a unit with 80 experience and 80 morale is going to have a CV that is 30% higher than one that is 70 exp/70 morale (80x80/70x70). I'm not saying you should have 80s, but the Germans should be higher than they are, especially their motorized/panzer divisions.

[Peltonx]

Thats just not possible at all under the current model, 100% not possible because of the 1v1 - 2v1 rule.

When 2 stacks of russian inf with 20-30 cv (40-50 total)on dec 42 attack 1 full strength inf or tank division with 85 morale in a level 3 fort the Russian will always get retreat because of the 1v1=2v1 rule.
Which means that the moral of the german unit goes down. So no matter what you guys do with forts,moral or production its not going to have an effect on the game until the rule is removed.

Unless you cap the german moral at a low of 80 the 1v1 = 2v1 will simply ruin whatever you guys are planning, because my lines when his offensive started where in level 3 forts and they simply got ground down in 5 turns. Even if you cap the moral its still not going to stop the losses the German army is forsed to take because of all the retreats.The Russian army should not be on a front wide offensive by Dec 42, when they have taken higher then historical losses in production during 41 summer.

You would have to low cap Geramn moral at 80 and there is no way in hell that russian moral should be as high as it is after the 41 blizzard, lower russian production and increase german production or you guys can simply drop the 1v1 = 2v1 rule. That rule trumps everything esle.

I am thinking that the german moral in the spring of 43 was allot higher then what it is to say the least, I am taking over 70k a turn in losses during the mud turns.

If hes not in berlin by march of 44 I will be very surpised.

Pelton

[Ketza]

I am a firm believer that the odds shift is the main culprit causing many of the long terms issues in the game. I am looking forward to how they are going to address it.

[Encircled]

No one is disputing that the odds shift is a factor, but the way Pelton in particular goes on about it, you would think it was a game wrecker.

Which it isn't

As I've said before, you have to be really careful about ditching something without some serious play testing, as it could have massive effects

[Peltonx]

We are the play testers for the long campaigns.

This game is massive and long term. There is just no way possible that the makers could have play tested the game competely.

I am 100% fine with helping out beta testing the game, its the best eastern front game ever and the AI is the best.

The 1v1 = 2v1 is over powering in the long run and tweaks here an there are not going to fix it. It is probably needed though 41 into 42 and needs to be dropped after that. With evenly matched players the Russian player can go on an all out offensive before 42 ends and there is nothing the Germans can do about it.

Pelton

[Encircled]

I'm not actually disagreeing with you, I'm making the point that we need a lot more information and a hell of a lot more games before we can be sure of what to do.

I've played three games as the Soviets in six months, and only my current one is in the middle of '42. I started playing just after Christmas.

We are talking about a serious amount of time and games before you can make such a big change.

[Joel Billings]

Just want to find out if by the odds multiplier, you would favor removing the 1 to 1 becomes 2 to 1 rule but keep the part of that rule where the Soviet attackers take more losses? They were put into the game together. Remove one and in theory you should remove both. I'd also be interested in some hard stats on just how many battles fall into this 1 to 1 upgraded to 2 to 1 retreat each turn. Also, keep in mind that due to the increased Soviet losses, without those increased Soviet losses some of those battles that come out between 1 to 1 and 2 to 1 that get upgraded would have come out over 2 to 1 had they been done without the extra Soviet losses. I could be wrong, but I think this rule is being blamed for much more than it really does. It's clearly been tried and convicted by the WitE community, but I wonder if it's really responsible for what it's being blamed for. [:)]

[Farfarer61]

I find that the manpower losses as Sov are appalling, so I tone down the number of attacks. I always found the "manpower fleeing" ability wrong. I would have the manpower "stay", or relocate like damaged industry, with a certain percentage destroyed (i.e. marched into labour camp). This would cause a Sov player to think twice about costly "1v1" victories.

[Joel Billings]

There is a chance that manpower is destroyed when a city is fought over and when it is captured, and once captured, a chance that additional manpower wil be destroyed. Historically there was a very large migration of manpower from the areas captured by the Axis, and while I can't claim we got it exactly right, tests during development showed we were getting in the correct ballpark of the amount of manpower that migrates.

[Peltonx]

The problem is not Russian losses as you have stated, but German losses are about 45% to high and moral to low. The extra losses are caused because of 1v1 = 2v1 causing retreats and the low moral is because of the 1v1=2v1 causing retreats.

So based on data I would remove the 1v1 = 2v1 and the Russian extra losses for attacking at some point in 42. Russian losses are never going to get close to historical because no Russian player in there right mind is going to do the never retreat stuff Stalin did.

I really like Turhnassas idea of a different victory pt counter.

But their is no way that the German moral should be so low and losses so high in early 43.

Pelton