THE THREAD!!!

[JWE]

Fresh caught shrimp scampi tithe.

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Send us some rain. I swear the southeastern US is headed down the road to become like north Africa.

Been raining every day for 2 weeks over in bee-you-tee-ful Mobile Bay. Every time I wanna cut the grass, another thunder bumper comes through. Back yard is beginning to look like New Guinea. Sent Beaudy out for his poops the other day and it took a half hour to find him. Just hope some cargo cult doesn't decide to move in.

[Nikademus]

Thunder this morning in Seattle.

It made me think.....people who don't or have never lived here might be suprised to know.....Seattle, for all it's rain rarely has "Thunderstorms"

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Amy Winehouse died, apparently from drugs overdose, yesterday... she had very nice voice...


Leo "Apollo11"

not to kick someone when they are done (permantly) but it appears i won my bet. I was texted this news by my best friend (but only that she died). He thought suicide. I said....."Drug Overdose" Havn't read any details but i recall reading an article on her a couple weeks ago that she was so out of it at her last concert that she couldn't remember her lyrics and got booed offstage.

sad.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Thunder this morning in Seattle.

It made me think.....people who don't or have never lived here might be suprised to know.....Seattle, for all it's rain rarely has "Thunderstorms"

Climate change Nik. Go down to the docks and ask some old fisherman what the weather was like in his grandaddy's time. Them guys know.

There's a reason they built houses in New England in the 16 and 1700s with a door to the outside at the end of the second story hallway.[;)]

[Nikademus]

there was a big article about climate change saying Seattle was getting warmer and wetter. The average temp increased a whopping 1.2 something degrees.


HIT THE PANIC BUTTON!

actually this summer has been among the coolest we've had in years. We've only had they say 74 minutes of weather above 80degrees up to this weekend so far this summer.

[Mynok]

That rain you drove through USS did hit the Triangle pretty good last night. Very welcome. And Chickenboy, feel free to divert the Mississippi over our way so we can get some of your excess H2O. [:'(]

Thunderstorms require heat. Not much of that in Seattle.

Just about done with Shattered Sword. Now I have to ask, Nik: what is so different about this book, which has LOTS of anecdotes and personal perspectives in it, and Neptune's Inferno that causes you to like one and hate the other?

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Just about done with Shattered Sword. Now I have to ask, Nik: what is so different about this book, which has LOTS of anecdotes and personal perspectives in it, and Neptune's Inferno that causes you to like one and hate the other?

I was not happy with the wording i used in my discussions re: Neptune and this was the #1 reason. I did not mean to imply that 'any' type of ancedotal and/or personal perspectives were bad. My name is not 'Diehl', [;)] whereby "ancedotal" is implied to be a dirty word while "fact" and "data" or worse "statistics" is a golden child because as one poster on another thread wisely saged it....."facts are subjective" As such, so are ancedotes. In the end it all comes down to context so when people accuse a book of being bad because it's "ancdeotal" its largely a straw man. Clay Blair proved that with his Uboat series. Never was a book more chalk full of [alleged] facts and statistics....yet the book is very controversial in it's views and conclusions.

On Neptune vs. Sword

Actually, i'm not totally happy with Shattered Sword either and have said so many times in the past. My biggest complaint re: sword is that in places the authors try too hard to present new data and angles as "relevent" Good examples are "counting the # of ammo carts on Kaga".....or musing about the size of Akagi's bridge. Also in places the author's let their cultural bias and (at least now according to Zimm) lack of understanding of how operational wargaming plays out in proffessional naval circles.

However, Sword differs from Neptune in that the latter is primarily story based, driven largely by accounts from mid level to lower level seamen vs. a more narrative overview at from i guess, for want of a better term, a god's eye view. Sword and Lundstrom for that matter, fall in between. The latter in particular restricts it's "Story telling" component to the US side which does create some skewing effects while Sword balances better with accounts from both sides. Neptune is told almost entirely from the US perspective.

However my biggest complaint against Neptune is not that its ancedotal. Its because its clearly biased against the Japanese. Again its about the context. For example, author will recount the Aug 7-8 air attacks and only mention that the bombers got knocked around badly, then will "support" it with a personal account of an low level eyewitness who talks derisively about the Japanese. This gives a strong impression that the Japanese were incompetant idiots. There is no mention of the slaughter of the Wildcats by the Zero escort and the description of AA downing 'most' of the bombers (during the Aug 7 raid....not the torpedo runs the next day) is so inaccurate as to laugh. When he's talking about Fletcher and why he ran away, there is also no mention of the loss of said fighters that also largely colored his viewpoint so he actually sabotages his own efforts to somewhat exonerate Fletcher. Thats what happens though when you write a few words then 'back it up' with a big ancdotal account. It distorts the context and unless the reader has a more dry book to cross reference it too, it can lead to a skewed viewpoint.

Another example - Savo Island debacle.....while i found it minutely interesting to read about Captain Bode's "history" prior to WWII and his ambitions, I'd trade that in a heartbeat for a more comprehensive account of the battle. Instead, only a couple pages disjointedly describe the action and then suddenly all your reading about is the damage control efforts about the sinking CA's interspaced with lots and lots of ancedotal accounts from low level crewman.

So when i was talking about data/facts etc, i guess what i was trying to say is that unlike Frank's account of Guad.....there's no comprehensive overview of the battles themselves. Instead, its more about the people.....which is Hornfischer's style. He wrote much the same way in Tin can sailors. Sword, Lundstrom and Frank at least give comprehensive overall coverage of the BATTLES. My last major complaint is that like in Tin can sailors, there are some major errors in the book. If nothing else, it puts to rest the notion that just because a history book is 'modern' or newer doesn't mean its better than books of the past.

Does that make it clearer?

[Dixie]

Bonus payment arrived today! [8D]  Feeling flush, although I don't know what to spend it on.  No doubt Mrs D will not approve of it whatever it is.

EDIT:
In fact I want this...

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3561 ... h-atlantic

[Nikademus]

On a last note re: the Martian's question.

I will admit as was already pointed out by one reader who did enjoy "Neptune", If one is indeed 'looking for a story' then the book isn't as bad a choice as it was for me.

For example, i'm currently almost done with "The Tsar's Last Armada" by Constantine Pleshakov. It's about the saga of the 2nd Pacific Squadron as it formed, traveled and died on the way from St. Petersburg to Tsunshima.

Reviews on this book are split down the middle. Some love it, some hate it. Mostly the hate side complaints revolve around what they consider 'useless details' such as the sexual habits of some of the Romanovs etc. and/or a lack of technical details about the ships or the battle itself. These are indeed valid complaints.

However, having read "Rising Sun, Tumbling Bear" which is a more dry analytical account of the Russo-Japanese war, I find that i am enjoying the book because it is very immersive and gives the reader a good understanding of the time period as well as how things were for the Russian sailors during their hellish voyage. It also provides some great insight into Rozhestvensky the man and the Admiral. I don't detect alot of or any major errors except that the author seems to not quite have grasped the nature of how radio was used in that period. Also, given the book is specifically stated as being "from the Russian perspective" and limits itself to the Baltic Fleet's journey, i guess i'm more forgiving vs. Neptune which is advertised as the latest greatest accounting of the surface *campaign* around Guadalcanal. Also the author doesn't appear to be biased. Some readers accuse him of Anglo-envy but i don't see it as that but rather as him trying to portray how Russians of the time period viewed the English and their RN.

[jeffk3510]

Good afternoon-

Need some advice on what to get the wifey for her Bday.

Kindle
Nook
Ipad....

That route.. please pm with your suggestions. Hardly have time to check the forum...busy is an under statement.

[Mynok]

Interesting. I believe I understand. I'll let you know what I think of Neptune's Inferno. It's next on the list...unless I decide to switch to "Rising Sun, Tumbling Bear", as you've piqued my interest.

Most interesting thing I've learned from Shattered Sword so far is how long people stayed on those burning carriers. [X(]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

Good afternoon-

Need some advice on what to get the wifey for her Bday.

Kindle
Nook
Ipad....

That route.. please pm with your suggestions. Hardly have time to check the forum...busy is an under statement.

sent pm

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Interesting. I believe I understand. I'll let you know what I think of Neptune's Inferno. It's next on the list...unless I decide to switch to "Rising Sun, Tumbling Bear", as you've piqued my interest.

Most interesting thing I've learned from Shattered Sword so far is how long people stayed on those burning carriers. [X(]

yep. Popular belief was the ships exploded and sank....and were unlivable but remarkably there were survivors though Kaga suffered horrendous casualties. The fires burned out the superstructures but left the hulls intact. Heat though killed many who were trapped below. Kind of like reading on heavy battles.....you think noone could survive yet alot often do.

Rising Sun, Tumbling Bear is the most comprehensive book i've yet read on the Russo Japanese war. It will suprise you.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

Bonus payment arrived today! [8D]  Feeling flush, although I don't know what to spend it on.  No doubt Mrs D will not approve of it whatever it is.

EDIT:
In fact I want this...

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3561 ... h-atlantic

Warspite1

Looks good - great to see some of those RN ships [:)] Will you be persuading Mrs Dixie do you think?

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Dixie

Bonus payment arrived today! [8D]  Feeling flush, although I don't know what to spend it on.  No doubt Mrs D will not approve of it whatever it is.

EDIT:
In fact I want this...

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3561 ... h-atlantic

Warspite1

Looks good - great to see some of those RN ships [:)] Will you be persuading Mrs Dixie do you think?

Hmmm, maybe. I've managed to earmark £200 for me with most of the payment going to my slush fund, I mean housing fund. The problem is that it's out of print and the manufacturers aren't planning any more print runs. Which means that people are asking silly money for it. The cheapest one I can find is for auction at $100+ and in Australia [X(] There are two people selling copies on the European mainland but they're asking for £140 for the cheapest one [:(]

If I can get one for a decent price then I'm willing to go for it. Mrs Dixie is already persuaded that it's my cash and I'm spending it on me [:D]

I'm still not sure about spending such a large amount of money on some cardboard counters...

[warspite1]

I have just started Neptune's inferno, and so far so good - it is written in a nice, readable style (if perhaps a little wordy).

I have just finished The Battle For Norway - and before that - The German Invasion of Norway. I thoroughly recommend these two tomes - both of which concentrate mainly on the naval battles. Only complaints are: they could do with a few more maps and also the author has a little problem with chronology when telling the story. However, these are minor irritations - these are brilliantly researched and written stories on one of the most interesting operations of WWII.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Dixie

Bonus payment arrived today! [8D]  Feeling flush, although I don't know what to spend it on.  No doubt Mrs D will not approve of it whatever it is.

EDIT:
In fact I want this...

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3561 ... h-atlantic

Warspite1

Looks good - great to see some of those RN ships [:)] Will you be persuading Mrs Dixie do you think?

Mrs Dixie is already persuaded that it's my cash and I'm spending it on me [:D]

Warspite1

Good man - quite right too [;)]

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I have just started Neptune's inferno, and so far so good - it is written in a nice, readable style (if perhaps a little wordy).

I have just finished The Battle For Norway - and before that - The German Invasion of Norway. I thoroughly recommend these two tomes - both of which concentrate mainly on the naval battles. Only complaints are: they could do with a few more maps and also the author has a little problem with chronology when telling the story. However, these are minor irritations - these are brilliantly researched and written stories on one of the most interesting operations of WWII.

Have you read Hitler's Preemptive war? It was free for kindle a few months back. The Norwegian campaign wasn't something I knew too much about but I learnt a lot from that book.

[Mynok]

Not free anymore! [:D]

It is only eight bucks though. That's pretty cheap. And it oughta be since there's zero cost involved.

[Schanilec]

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

Good afternoon-

Need some advice on what to get the wifey for her Bday.

Kindle
Nook
Ipad....

That route.. please pm with your suggestions. Hardly have time to check the forum...busy is an under statement.

Nothing say I love you like Craftmans. How 'bout a sawsall.[;)]