Axis: Tiger tank pool

[jzardos]

Has anybody else had this symptom?

Seems my pool of tiger tanks sitting in the warehouse by 100's is a bit nutty? For reference, it's early 43 and I have only one su using them and another hvy pz su coming in a few turns that has tigers too. Do the TOE of Pz Div (SS?) use these in 44? I don't think any nation would keep such a potent weapon collecting dust when the battles raging on the front require all they can to just hold the line. I'm not going to have the Soviet streamroller in Berlin by 44 and have 2k Tiger tanks in my pool? Why can't the game allow the axis player to build some su to use equipment in the pools for APs? How badly will that hurt the play balance?

I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank ComradeP for all his help. I've used him as a resource for some of my questions in the past and the guy is a stud at promptly getting back to me with terrific advice and insight into WitE. He's given me x100 more playing satisfaction with WitE from what I've learned from him.

Kudos to you ComradeP!
[&o]

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: jzardos

Has anybody else had this symptom?

Seems my pool of tiger tanks sitting in the warehouse by 100's is a bit nutty? For reference, it's early 43 and I have only one su using them and another hvy pz su coming in a few turns that has tigers too. Do the TOE of Pz Div (SS?) use these in 44? I don't think any nation would keep such a potent weapon collecting dust when the battles raging on the front require all they can to just hold the line. I'm not going to have the Soviet streamroller in Berlin by 44 and have 2k Tiger tanks in my pool? Why can't the game allow the axis player to build some su to use equipment in the pools for APs? How badly will that hurt the play balance?

I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank ComradeP for all his help. I've used him as a resource for some of my questions in the past and the guy is a stud at promptly getting back to me with terrific advice and insight into WitE. He's given me x100 more playing satisfaction with WitE from what I've learned from him.

Kudos to you ComradeP!
[&o]

Aside from the independent Heavy Panzer Battalions, the Tiger was officially organic only to GD and the elite SS divisions (LAH, DR, etc.) and that's the way we made it in the game. Tiger use will go up in 1943 with these units. Unfortunately there is a considerable lag between when the Tiger went into production and when its use became widespread which causes them to accumulate in the pool.

Given the design restrictions of WitE there is no way to utiilize equipment buildups during the course of a game. Your only option is to edit the TOEs to include Tigers in addtional formations.

[kirkgregerson]

I've seen the same issue and personally it's not very accurate to give the axis player no way to utilize equipment if the manpower and fuel needed is available.

Would it be so hard to allow a feature (make it a set-up checkbox for WitE) for the axis player to create a few types of SU (pz[light, med, hvy], arty[light, med, hvy], pioneer, labor, etc) for some APs? It should not impact the play balance since this is equipment that should be used and if not already being used by other unit's TOE. Also, it would still cost the axis armaments to flush out equipment that was not already in the pools as normal. Would solve the issue of large stockpiles of unused axis equipment.

[Jakerson]

German (and Soviet) needed tanks in reserve to train new tank crews allowing pool to dry up totally all of time just would not be realistic.

[Klydon]

Something like this highlights some of the issues in the game between the two sides.

Germans changed ToE's many times in response to the overall casualties they were taking. Would have those changes taken place if casualties were not as heavy?

Russian player can take advantage of any stockpiles of equipment that build up in simply building more support units that use those particular items.

Germans are stuck with a fixed force structure and can't take advantage of less than historical losses to build more units to take advantage of their fewer casualties. If the Germans had a couple hundred Tiger tanks laying around, they would have formed more support units to use them and/or put them in certain ToE's (probably SS divisions first).

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: jzardos
I'm not going to have the Soviet streamroller in Berlin by 44 and have 2k Tiger tanks in my pool?

If you really have 2000 Tigers in your pool I would say WITE seriously overestimates Tiger production. IIRC only about 1300 were were produced during the war.

[veji1]

One of the peculiarities of this game, similar to WITP, is that one side can tinker with its OOB or equipment quite a lot (the soviets here, just as the Japs can tinker with their aircraft production in WITP), while the other is stuck with its historical OOB and equipment (The allies in WITP, here the Germans).

This unbalance can be frustrating to players. In WITP it leads to good japanese "optimizator style" players managing to outrproduce the allies in terms of airframes. But at least it's the "weaker" side that gets this boost. Here it can be doubly frustrating for the Germans from 42 on to see the Soviets massing guars units, rifle and tank corps, artillery divisions, shock armies, in the way of their choosing (to some extent at least), while they are stuck with their OOB and the exact type of units equiped with Tigers or other equipment.

It means that whether the German player plays well or not, has secured a solid capturing of factories and population and ressource centers or others, has managed to limit his losses, he cannot build upon this to reinforce his troops beyond the strictly historical setting.

I would advocate a certain leeway. Indeed, not transforming this game in a free for all what if, but allowing the german player to create more support units for example, would be a good way. If a german player has conserved his forces well, and through limited losses (no Uranus, no Zitadell, etc...) built up solid pools of Tigers, Panthers or others, he should be able to use them, of course whithin roughly plausible limits.

[Montbrun]

Heavy Tank Production:

Tiger I
1942 - 76
1943 - 647
1944 - 623
Tiger II
1944 - 377
1945 - 112
Jagdtiger
1944 - 51
1945 - 34
Ferdinand
1943 - 90

SOURCE: Jentz, Thomas L., et al, "Panzer Tracts No. 23 - Panzer Production from 1933 to 1945," Panzer Tracts, Boyds, MD, 2011.

There's a lag between production start and units able to use the device. Also, we see total production - there are other units on other fronts that would be soaking up alot of the excess. The production system is being reviewed.

Brad

[FredSanford3]

Also, the game simplifies production by simply taking the total number built and dividing it by the amount of time in production and arriving at an average production rate. Production sent to other fronts, and rebuilds are then factored out as I understand. Using a constant average production rate ends up with a situation where the production rate overestimates production early in a given equipment's production run, and underestimating it later, during it's (historical) peak production periods.

So in reality, those early 1943 Tigers don't "really" exist, so having the ability to create SU's that do use them would be more ahistorical. I'm willing to bet the Germans tried to get as many Tiger units into action as soon as they could feasible (sort of) support at the time. That's why they didn't make them organic to all but a few favored divisions, but left them in separate battalions.

If the game replicated the actual, variable production rates attained, you wouldn't have those Tigers sitting in the pool, because they wouldn't be getting built at that time in the first place. But I doubt the records exist that would allow the devs to duplicate the varying production rates for all the equipment in the game, so the averaging of production rates is a tactic of necessity.

[kvolk]

I would just add that seeing numbers in the pool also doesn't assume they are operating units for front line duty. I am sure everyone remembers the story of the first panthers and tigers that went to the front immediately broke down and didn't perform well if at all for many months.

[abulbulian]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Something like this highlights some of the issues in the game between the two sides.

Germans changed ToE's many times in response to the overall casualties they were taking. Would have those changes taken place if casualties were not as heavy?

Russian player can take advantage of any stockpiles of equipment that build up in simply building more support units that use those particular items.

Germans are stuck with a fixed force structure and can't take advantage of less than historical losses to build more units to take advantage of their fewer casualties. If the Germans had a couple hundred Tiger tanks laying around, they would have formed more support units to use them and/or put them in certain ToE's (probably SS divisions first).

+1

I have always thought this was silly that the axis could never build su. Just make them cost some APs and people NEED to understand it's not like they are free units, the axis still must have the armaments and manpower to flush out the unit. What it does do is allow the axis player to utilize potential pools of unused equipment if they are doing better than historical or just need certain units on the front. IMO there would need to be some limits on how many of each type of su they could build.

Haven't complained about this too much in the past because I just assumed the developers would get to this (like in WITP) once the high priority bugs and features where done.

FYI: Panthers and Tigers never sat around in warehouses, they were used on the front ASAP. Oh for those that think they waited to work out all the mechanical issue, lol, you need to read some good accounts of the battle of Kursk as to how many mechanical issues the new Tigers and especially Panthers. I believe this is account for in WitE with the reliability ratings of these early models.

There's no rational argument anybody can make to historically suggest the Germans would keep large pools of tanks/vehicles in warehouse when manpower was available(!!!remember this is for east front - not west with production values!!!) while a life and death struggle for the German Army was taking place in the Soviet Union. If you want to make stuff up or kid yourself, go ahead and act the fool. [;)]

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

Also, the game simplifies production by simply taking the total number built and dividing it by the amount of time in production and arriving at an average production rate. Production sent to other fronts, and rebuilds are then factored out as I understand. Using a constant average production rate ends up with a situation where the production rate overestimates production early in a given equipment's production run, and underestimating it later, during it's (historical) peak production periods.

So in reality, those early 1943 Tigers don't "really" exist, so having the ability to create SU's that do use them would be more ahistorical. I'm willing to bet the Germans tried to get as many Tiger units into action as soon as they could feasible (sort of) support at the time. That's why they didn't make them organic to all but a few favored divisions, but left them in separate battalions.

If the game replicated the actual, variable production rates attained, you wouldn't have those Tigers sitting in the pool, because they wouldn't be getting built at that time in the first place. But I doubt the records exist that would allow the devs to duplicate the varying production rates for all the equipment in the game, so the averaging of production rates is a tactic of necessity.

I couldn't have put it better myself. Game production is linear but historical production started very slowly and built up over time but even when "capacity" was reached there were month-to-month fluxuations. This divergence from history is compounded by the TOEs which are historical and call for only 20 Tigers initially in the independent battalions and 14 in the Tiger-equipped divisions. In the later half of 1943 the independent battalions increase to 45 Tigers as does the Tiger complement in GD; for awhile the SS have up to 27 Tigers. Therefore the Tiger "surplus" won't start to get absorbed until late 1943 and that assumes a roughly historical game. If the Soviet player is doing poorly and German AFV losses are running below historical then the Tiger surplus could last longer.

[abulbulian]

Jaw,
Sure, but from what I know about the game production in WitE is an approximation of how much a given piece of equipment (non A types) was produced historically and used on the eastern front. Currently, and correct me if I'm wrong, but WitE penalizes the axis player that is doing better than historical as they will accumulate more tanks and such in the pools that they can't use on the front. Why? IMO that's ridiculous.

FYI: I suspect Tiger production might be a tad higher than historical, but that's not my concern ATM since most players will probably end the game with Tigers in the pool anyways.

Please explain why the *bleep* the Soviets can produced as much arty as they want (given armaments avail), but the axis player is always set to a ceiling even if they have the armaments and manpower available? How does that make any sense? One is confined to something historical and the other is not? I will always hate this aspect of WitE because it's just not rational.

I dare anybody to even hint that play balance would be effected on any scale if the axis player were allowed to build some su (limited in scope and #'s) for high APs to take advantage of surplus vehicles/tanks in the pool. As far as I know, it's difficult to prove if the game is 100% balanced right now.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Jaw,
Sure, but from what I know about the game production in WitE is an approximation of how much a given piece of equipment (non A types) was produced historically and used on the eastern front. Currently, and correct me if I'm wrong, but WitE penalizes the axis player that is doing better than historical as they will accumulate more tanks and such in the pools that they can't use on the front. Why? IMO that's ridiculous.

FYI: I suspect Tiger production might be a tad higher than historical, but that's not my concern ATM since most players will probably end the game with Tigers in the pool anyways.

Please explain why the *bleep* the Soviets can produced as much arty as they want (given armaments avail), but the axis player is always set to a ceiling even if they have the armaments and manpower available? How does that make any sense? One is confined to something historical and the other is not? I will always hate this aspect of WitE because it's just not rational.

I dare anybody to even hint that play balance would be effected on any scale if the axis player were allowed to build some su (limited in scope and #'s) for high APs to take advantage of surplus vehicles/tanks in the pool. As far as I know, it's difficult to prove if the game is 100% balanced right now.

Fixed Production (AFVs & aircraft) is fixed for both sides. The Soviet player can vary the number of formations he fields (more tank corps, fewer rifle corps, etc.) but he can't change the amount of fixed production in total. Given that the Red Army fielded a huge number of formations historically, I think Soviet players would be more inclined to field fewer rather than field more formations than historical but I'd prefer to have the more experience Soviet players weight in on that. Most of the games I've played as the Soviet were late war games and I never bother to build anything new in them.

I believe Tiger production to be accurate but I've been known to make mistakes before so I'll double check it for you.

One of the historical parameters of the game is that the Axis player is limited to the units actually sent to the Eastern Front. In short, it is a design decision and that is above my pay grade.

If you don't think additional Axis formations would effect play balance why would you want them? People are frustrated that they are exceeding historical performance and are limited by the game system from exceeding it even faster. Maybe I'm just showing my age but when I see that a game as become that askewed I just start over.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Jaw,
Sure, but from what I know about the game production in WitE is an approximation of how much a given piece of equipment (non A types) was produced historically and used on the eastern front. Currently, and correct me if I'm wrong, but WitE penalizes the axis player that is doing better than historical as they will accumulate more tanks and such in the pools that they can't use on the front. Why? IMO that's ridiculous.

FYI: I suspect Tiger production might be a tad higher than historical, but that's not my concern ATM since most players will probably end the game with Tigers in the pool anyways.

Please explain why the *bleep* the Soviets can produced as much arty as they want (given armaments avail), but the axis player is always set to a ceiling even if they have the armaments and manpower available? How does that make any sense? One is confined to something historical and the other is not? I will always hate this aspect of WitE because it's just not rational.

I dare anybody to even hint that play balance would be effected on any scale if the axis player were allowed to build some su (limited in scope and #'s) for high APs to take advantage of surplus vehicles/tanks in the pool. As far as I know, it's difficult to prove if the game is 100% balanced right now.

Fixed Production (AFVs & aircraft) is fixed for both sides. The Soviet player can vary the number of formations he fields (more tank corps, fewer rifle corps, etc.) but he can't change the amount of fixed production in total. Given that the Red Army fielded a huge number of formations historically, I think Soviet players would be more inclined to field fewer rather than field more formations than historical but I'd prefer to have the more experience Soviet players weight in on that. Most of the games I've played as the Soviet were late war games and I never bother to build anything new in them.

Speaking as a largely Soviet player I know I tend to build fewer, if for no other reason than the Red Army is already incredibly difficult to manage once on the offensive (in terms of moving units around) and there really is no reason to just keep building huge numbers of units once you have a decent core of Rifle Corps...IMO. No point in just building stuff to have it sit around in the rear.

[Jakerson]

ORIGINAL: jaw
One of the historical parameters of the game is that the Axis player is limited to the units actually sent to the Eastern Front. In short, it is a design decision and that is above my pay grade.

If you don't think additional Axis formations would effect play balance why would you want them? People are frustrated that they are exceeding historical performance and are limited by the game system from exceeding it even faster. Maybe I'm just showing my age but when I see that a game as become that askewed I just start over.

This is what bother me most that in many AAR's axis outperform a lot what happened historically and then want to outperform that even faster.

And for outperform I mean that Axis side can reach many cities and target 2-3 times faster than they reach them historically and Axis players want to reach those targets even faster than that with new game mechanic chances like fortification nerfing. Many axis players dont seem to accept any other result than decisive victory and very fast.

[abulbulian]

ORIGINAL: jaw

If you don't think additional Axis formations would effect play balance why would you want them? People are frustrated that they are exceeding historical performance and are limited by the game system from exceeding it even faster. Maybe I'm just showing my age but when I see that a game as become that askewed I just start over.

For a few reason, first it's what I consider more accurate to allow the use of produced equipment that was slated for the eastern front. We both know the Germans were scrounging for all vehicles they could to stop the Soviet hoards after they lost so much in the retreats of 41 and in general to keep up with Soviet production. It makes for good logical sense to allow the Germans to use the pools somewhat for critical tanks and vehicles.

I think you're missing my point about what the Soviets can do in WitE and what they did historically. My example with arty was that they can build more than they did historically (each year) and PUT it in the field. Sure they did have a lot by the end of the war. But most AAR games I see the Soviets with more arty in 42 then historically. As the axis it's even worse then getting your historical production to use. Case and point, an axis player does well to protect his tanks and builds up some nice pools. Is he rewarded and able to use THAT STOCK HISTORICAL production? NO. Why not? In terms of the way WitE works, the axis need to have units depleted in the right type of tank to pull from the pools. Nobody has come close to even giving me a reason why this would make any rational sense? So WitE basically penalizes an axis player for doing better than historical, since he will never be able to utilize the production that took place between 41-45. These surplus tanks/vehicles just sit in the pool until the TOE of a unit in the fields is reduced and can pull them in.

[Jakerson]

ORIGINAL: abulbulian
For a few reason, first it's what I consider more accurate to allow the use of produced equipment that was slated for the eastern front. We both know the Germans were scrounging for all vehicles they could to stop the Soviet hoards after they lost so much in the retreats of 41 and in general to keep up with Soviet production. It makes for good logical sense to allow the Germans to use the pools somewhat for critical tanks and vehicles.

I think you're missing my point about what the Soviets can do in WitE and what they did historically. My example with arty was that they can build more than they did historically (each year) and PUT it in the field. Sure they did have a lot by the end of the war. But most AAR games I see the Soviets with more arty in 42 then historically. As the axis it's even worse then getting your historical production to use. Case and point, an axis player does well to protect his tanks and builds up some nice pools. Is he rewarded and able to use THAT STOCK HISTORICAL production? NO. Why not? In terms of the way WitE works, the axis need to have units depleted in the right type of tank to pull from the pools. Nobody has come close to even giving me a reason why this would make any rational sense? So WitE basically penalizes an axis player for doing better than historical, since he will never be able to utilize the production that took place between 41-45. These surplus tanks/vehicles just sit in the pool until the TOE of a unit in the fields is reduced and can pull them in.

Reducing soviet armament production really dont penaltize number of their troops in late years that much.

Soviet gets more menpower than Germans but it is not armament that is gaps for Soviet side in the end years how much troops they can field. Armaments is gap for Soviet troops building mostly in year 42 after that Soviet menpower points produce less and less men eatch year. Sooner or later there is a lot more armament in Soviet pool that cannot be formed as units as there is no men in pool for those guns.

It is all in manual.

[abulbulian]

Jakerson,

I understand the mechanics of how this works in WitE. I'm not sure if you're responding to me or just making some random statements about how production works.

Once again I think I just need to make my question to people and the forum T)rue or F)alse.

1)Soviets have the ability to produce more artillery (sappers, etc) then they actually had year to year historically?

2)Axis are confined to a ceiling of tanks, artillery, pioneers, etc. that can be in the field based on units TOE that are on fixed entry and withdraw schedule?

3) Axis players that do well in terms of lighter than historical loses to tanks (let's say) will accumulate the historical tank production that was utilized on the eastern front in pools. These tanks will never be release for use on the map unless unit TOEs fall below 100% for said tank type.

4)Based on #3, Axis players that do better than historical will never be able to utilize the historical production.

5) Soviet players that do better than historical will be able to utilize their production (i.e. more manpower centers under control, more factories moved to safety)? (given the Soviet player creates proper units to use production pools).

Let me know if I need to clarify any of these questions.
[;)]

[jzardos]

my 2cents.

1) True

2) True

3) True

4) True

5) True

Although seeing my list of all 'True' responses, if this were a college quiz I'd be worried that I should at least one one 'False' response. [:-]

Where is ComradeP, I want to copy my answers from his paper [&o]

I'm in the camp that something (SOONER than later) should be done in WitE to allow for some axis building of su and/or units. That would only enhance the game play experience for the axis player. The logic for building units already exist in the code, so just makes some hooks to allow the axis to do the same.

It would especially be useful if say in 43 mid 43 the axis player could build a few more Hvy Pz su. If Tiger production is accurate as Jaw stated, I would like to use the several hundred Tigers just sitting collecting dust. I know my Panzer generals on the front would appreciate that as well! [:'(]