Question of good taste

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:04 am

This kind of stuff always gets people up in arms. I personally never even noticed that the guy on the intro screen was SS, and now that I know don't really care. In america people throw around the word "nazi" a lot. Our culture finds it to be fair game. No one defends it ( it's not easy to defend ), but it's so detached from today's generation that we don't really feel it's awful weight either. I shy away from the word myself, but that's only after extensive reading. I'm 27, so I don't have any of those really deep feelings about this that those of you who are older and were closer to the action have.

Here's my opinion: SPWAW is a public and international phenomenon. I don't think people will forget the SS or Hitler if they aren't reminded of it. If anything in the release is offensive to anybody, and there is reasonable replacement imagery then do it. It can't be that important, especially in the face of a game as cool as this one. But I'm not the developer, I'm not calling the shots, and I don't have all the information.

Tomo

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:05 am

The MSG: Actually the swastika was used in Germany by occultists (and those uninformed) before Hitler was in politics, though he gave it much more exposure. As far as the SS runes go, and all the other runes Nazi Germany used, they 'may' had been "dug up" by the Blavasky types, and thus Hitler took that under his reigns as well. I don't think the runes had any exposure, unlike the swastika, outside occultic circles before Hitler came to power.

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:19 am

Never forgetting the bad (i.e., the Hitler orations, the swastikas, the double lightning bolts of the SS, etc.) reminds us, and our allies, of the significance of our accomplishments, and of what we must never allow to happen again.

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:26 am

It is important not to dismiss/ignore the symbology of evil (i.e., Hitler orations, swastikas, double lighnting bolts of the SS, etc.) from WWII. This serves to remind us, and our allies, of the importance of our accomplishments, and that it must never be allowed to happen again.

Rhone · Post by **Rhone** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:30 am

Wait a second, I thought it was just a "game"? But mention removing the Nazi stuff and people talk about rememberance and "lest we forget"....? I'm confused. Is it a game or a history lesson?

If it's game, then nobody would mind putting General Eisenhower on the logo along with Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill, with Churchill reciting "You do your worst, and we will do our best" Speech.

I take it people would object if they thought it more of a game and more of a history lesson. And if that is strangely the case, then why not the exclusion of any sort of Allied rememberance in the logo or themes?

In any event, Nazi lovers are not the ones buying this game. It's mostly every day average people who enjoy the Steel Panthers Genre.

Something to think about for sure. Especially if people were interested in perhaps marketing this product one day.

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:50 am

Are there those who also object to the very name of the game too (i.e., would prefer the game to be called "Steel Tanks").

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 1:02 am

Panzer Captain: If they would object to that, then obviously your moniker is a problem too. How about "Steel, Anything Other Than The Slightest Hint Of German/War Glorification Units (tank would be far too aggressive a word)?"

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 1:09 am

I guess my Username is "auch verbotten".

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:21 am

A quick summation:

All Frank asked was that folks ease up on referring to Germans outright as Nazis. He isn't threatening to sue Matrix or any of the forum participants. It seems like a simple request.

Of course, individuals can choose to honor Frank's request or not. Frank has a choice to stay or leave (this would be sad). It's all choices.

Furthermore, no one is asking that anyone change their screen name or to even gloss over parts of history. The sense I got from Frank was that people were using the word in a pejorative rather than historical context. We can have intense, even heated discussions about the game and the history it represents without using grand (and often historically incorrect) generalities.

Bottom line: A member of our community has made a request. Honor it or not. There is no penalty for refusing to honor this request. However, there may be a great benefit in taking that extra minute to think about the words that others will read.

Lou

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:51 am

I completely agree with Frank's original comments, and fully understand and respect his point of view. It is quite interesting how these discussions evolve though.

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:57 am

My final comment on this issue is directly for Frank:

I can guarantee you Frank that there is not a single person in this forum that means any disrespect to the German people. This is a fine forum comprised of helpful, well-learned, and enthusiastic individuals who make this a fine hobby.

BlitzSS · Post by **BlitzSS** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 3:19 am

Amen, to that my friend.

Securitas · Post by **Securitas** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 3:19 am

I have been following this thread from the beginning and found it fascinating to observe how it has devolved from a request for tact and consideration into a discussion of quasi-history and free-speech rights.

I think that there can be no question in any of our reader's minds that no constructive discussion can be had if we hurl insults at each other or conduct name-calling sessions. We can all appreciate frankness, but courtesy is something we all must maintain.

I think it is a mistake to focus on the logo of SPWAW in isolation and to say it does or does not glamorize an unpleasant part of history.

I for one think that hiding the past will neither be successful nor useful. On the other hand, I do find it a interesting observation that in the past decade there has been a profusion of products that seem to focus on, or use as its symbology, German units, vehicles, or insignia of the Second World War. Yes, Matrix is perfectly within its rights to choose to use SS or Swastikas on its logo for SPWAW. But is it not a bit curious that so many others also choose to use similar "marketing" visuals? You will have a hard time convincing me that a British soldier in his typical helmet, or a GI, is so poorly known that we HAVE to use a German SS trooper as a symbol. But I think most of us already know that.

The question is not whether we CAN put German, or in particular NAZI symbology, but whether we SHOULD. At the least, a more balanced image showing some other principal combatants in addition would be beyond reproach.

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Securitas
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88 is a really nice number

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:46 am

Securitas: That image there, of the German SS soldier, is probably the most recognized poster from all the posters of WWII. What could be more balanced than two Allies depicted and "one" Axis? Is it Matrix's or anyone else's fault that there aren't that many people who recognise where those other soldiers come from? Of course not. So, since the Germans did so much harm, and the Japanese as well, does this sort of thinking only allow Italians to represent the Axis with a picture (who didn't last the whole war as an Axis)? Truly, if this were done, a lot of people would have no idea which war, "World at War" was talking about. Look at the pictures. See anything there besides the SS man that tells you what war it's talking about? I don't. So, the SS man serves a purpose, since the words 'WWII at War" or something similar isn't there.

In case you hadn't figured it out, one of the reasons for people being interested in Nazi Germany, has primarily to do with how much they conquered and the many mysteries as to why they didn't conquer much more (or less) than they did, to say nothing of the lessons involved with a cultured nation going mad after being put under harsh conditions by the victors in the previous war. This to say nothing of the German military having been the harbingers of modern warfare to a very large extent. Frankly I would think as the various points of interest go, that only the Soviet Union could rival Nazi Germany during WWII.

Securitas · Post by **Securitas** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 8:50 am

Charles22, I think you misunderstood my point. I specifically said that I did not wish to focus on the SPWAW logo in isolation. One cannot look at one game and then make generalizations about the use of appropriate imagery.

However, I know that from the comments others made in this thread I am not alone in the opinion that the focus on things German is present in many forms and can be seen in the choice of merchandizing methods.

The examples are plentiful, and what I find interesting is that I have quite a few computer games on the subject of WWII, and I must say that close to 1/2 of the games use German images. This in itself is fine. But considering the number of other MAJOR combatants there were, with quite distinctive faces, propaganda posters, insignia or vehicles, it is intriguing that one particular country is so relatively overrepresented.

I do not accept the argument that the majority of WWII game purchasers will only recognize SS recruiting posters and the like, but would not have a clue what a Sherman looks like, or a Tommy with his typical tin pot helmet. Again, remember that I am not specifically referring to the SPWAW logo, but a general marketing trend.

And as far as the German military introducing many elements of modern warfare, I quite agree. Yet Hitler's economic policies which arguably led to the rejuvenation of the German prewar economy does not make economy texts with Hitler's face on the cover.

The bottom line of what I am trying to auggest here is that while in principle I have nothing against the SPWAW logo, and I often play the Germans in the game, and have tons of fun doing so, I have, as others have, observed a marketing trend that I believe is possibly, as you postulate, the result of the excitement of imagination with german military professionalism, but as those who recall from firsthand experience depart this world, there is less tempering of this admiration with the recollection of the bad things associated with Nazism.

In our desire to remember the past, we may be omitting details that would allow us to best learn from it.

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Securitas
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88 is a really nice number

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 8:21 pm

Securitas: Some of our perspectives are opposed. For one thing, I have noted that most people don't know where the other two soldiers are from, much less what time period. There's nothing to indicate it's not WWI, other than the SS man. You seem to think everyone recognizes the other soldiers, but you haven't commented on whether they indeed would be able to determine the time period of "World at War" relying only on the Allied pair.

As far as the subject of isolating the German goes, I don't follow your reasoning. You said

The question is not whether we CAN put German, or in particular NAZI symbology, but whether we SHOULD. At the least, a more balanced image showing some other principal combatants in addition would be beyond reproach.

So, with such a statement, it seems that on one side of your mouth (from earlier statements) you want to say you don't have a problem with it, but you last statement seems to indicate otherwise. As I said, if one wishes for images to be used that signify WWII combatants, Matrix has done a marvelous job, and your last comment seems to suggest that you don't even want any Germans represented AT ALL, because the German is too overrepresented in wargaming as it is. That's your opinion. You said they're in 50% of the wargaming stuff marketing, but I think your estimate is far too low. Unlike you, I truly don't have a problem with that, The Germans started it, and were the Axis in it for the longest period. WWII gaming isn't some PC attempt to "balance" every nation by some phoney representation of all forces. It was a battle very largely aggressively fought by the Germans and Japanese, and that's why the wargaming focus is in their direction (aside from the success they had for some time). If the US were the ones with all the expansionist plans, throughout, you would see the focus their direction. To try to find social justice through diminishing some nation's role in a certain war is plain nonsense.

Go start buying American Revolutionary War type games, and see the overflow of Germans represented there. What, there aren't any? Didn't they have forces that may had fought for or against the British at that time? Sure, it's possible, but they weren't the main combatants. Taking out the Germans in WWII for some lame fairness exercise to the other nations, is about the same thing as diminishing the Americans or British roles in the American Revolutionary games. Perhaps part of the reason that people even have ANY curiousity about WWII anymore, is precisely because it hasn't been subject to PC overbearance yet, and actually may be contributing to a sort of defiance to that sort of thinking by this alleged overemphasis on things Axis, or more particularly German.

I can't see how Matrix's images could be more to your liking, because the Germans best represent the Axis presence, do they not? As well, there are two Allies to one Axis, as I pointed out. What could be more balanced for you? You seem to say you have a problem with German representation being too strong at 50% (which I think is higher and with good reason), but what would be an acceptable ratio for you? For to look at the images, Germans are only 33% on the logo (though one might say the most prominent). You say you don't want to focus on the logo, but it's precisely what you've done when you seem to be wanting Matrix to nix the image because it should be their duty to correct alleged gross overrepresentation of a single army in the market, particularly since it's only "1/3" of the images there and not the only one. How do you say that you don't want to focus on the image and then advise it be changed? How can you double-talk like that?

BTW, I never said people wouldn't recognise a SHERMAN (but probably still wouldn't know the name of it), I referred to the very iamges that are on this screen, nothing more, nothing less. I just don't think people recognise those uniforms, and they certainly don't recognise them as to the specific time period, but what the heck, Matrix just picked out some typical WWII images, and the SS man representing the Axis couldn't have been a better choice in terms of recognition due to uniform and time period.

Ivancito · Post by **Ivancito** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 8:51 pm

From www.britannica.com:

"Swastika

Equilateral cross with arms bent at right angles, all in the same rotary direction, usually clockwise. The swastika as a symbol of prosperity and good fortune is widely distributed throughout the ancient and modern world. The word is derived from the Sanskrit svastika, meaning "conducive to well-being." It was a favourite symbol on ancient Mesopotamian coinage. In Scandinavia the left-hand swastika was the sign for the god Thor's hammer. The swastika also appeared in early Christian and Byzantine art (where it became known as the gammadion cross, or crux gammata, because it could be constructed from four Greek gammas attached to a common base), and it occurred in South and Central America (among the Maya) and in North America (principally among the Navajo).

In India the swastika continues to be the most widely used auspicious symbol of Hindus, Jainas, and Buddhists. Among the Jainas it is the emblem of their seventh Tirthankara (saint) and is also said to remind the worshiper by its four arms of the four possible places of rebirth--in the animal or plant world, in hell, on Earth, or in the spirit world.

The Hindus (and also Jainas) use the swastika to mark the opening pages of their account books, thresholds, doors, and offerings. A clear distinction is made between the right-hand swastika, which moves in a clockwise direction, and the left-hand swastika (more correctly called the sauvastika), which moves in a counterclockwise direction. The right-hand swastika is considered a solar symbol and imitates in the rotation of its arms the course taken daily by the Sun, which in the Northern Hemisphere appears to pass from east, then south, to west. The left-hand swastika more often stands for night, the terrifying goddess Kali, and magical practices.

In the Buddhist tradition the swastika symbolizes the feet, or the footprints, of the Buddha. It is often placed at the beginning and end of inscriptions, and modern Tibetan Buddhists use it as a clothing decoration. With the spread of Buddhism, the swastika passed into the iconography of China and Japan, where it has been used to denote plurality, abundance, prosperity, and long life.

In Nazi Germany the swastika (German: Hakenkreuz), with its oblique arms turned clockwise, became the national symbol. In 1910 a poet and nationalist ideologist Guido von List had suggested the swastika as a symbol for all anti-Semitic organizations; and when the National Socialist Party was formed in 1919-20, it adopted it. On Sept. 15, 1935, the black swastika on a white circle with a red background became the national flag of Germany. This use of the swastika ended in World War II with the German surrender in May 1945, though the swastika is still favoured by neo-Nazi groups."

Hope this clears things a bit for some people.

As for myself, I get mildly annoyed when I see the SS guy but it doesn't interfere in my enjoyment of the game.

FWIW, I make a point of never using SS troops when playing *any* wargame. However, I have no intention of presuming to tell anybody what's "right" and what's "wrong". You play the way you like it. It's a game.

Securitas · Post by **Securitas** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 11:24 pm

Charles22:

I am disappointed that you choose not to discuss an issue without resorting to fairly tactless comments about talking out of the side of the mouth and double-talk. I have seen your other posts in other threads and I respect your opinions (for that matter I agree with a lot of them). I would expect the same respect in return. Without it, any further debate is pointless and unpleasant.

The other thing that is unfortunate is that, aside from what I mentioned above, most of your comments are things that I agree with, it seems to me that you are discussing one issue and I am looking at another, albeit related one. Too bad.

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Securitas
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88 is a really nice number

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Fri Dec 29, 2000 2:08 am

Securitas: There's nothing tactless about alerting you to the very thing you're doing. If you wish to keep pulling the wool over someone's eyes with such talk, it's to your loss. The "I'm not really having a problem with the logo" angle is fine and good by itself, as would be the "I don't think there's enough non-German representation on the logo" by itself, but the two don't go together, don't you see that? Is the logo, or the wargaming market's general high useage of German imagery much more reproachable, or ignoring our own conduct in trying to stop the bad use thereof? Your message, speaks many more volumes when it doesn't contradict, aside from our different positions, don't you think (not that effectiveness of our tact is the issue here)? Aren't you stabbing your message against perceived bad behavior, in the back, when you contradict yourself like that? It's a bad habit to get into Securitas, and I've done it myself a few times. To ignore it is to continue breed it's further useage. I wish you well in what I'm sure will be your unflinching efforts.

One last thing, you have a problem with emphasis on Gerry representation, but look at the logo ON YOUR OWN messages (88 etc.).

[This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited December 28, 2000).]

Securitas · Post by **Securitas** » Fri Dec 29, 2000 3:16 am

Charles22:

I fail to see any contradiction in anything I have said. I CAN see why you think there is one, though, and that was not my intention, so let's try to clear that up.

You feel as if I am referring to the SPWAW logo and saying it is ok, and then, quoting you "I don't think there's enough non-German representation on the logo." Here is where we are passing each other by and not meeting on the mark. Your quote would be correct *IF* we removed "on the logo". That is not quite correct, perhaps you misinterpreted what I am trying to say, because the logo you refer to is the SPWAW one. What it should read is "I don't think there's enough non-German representation on so many products out there".

Keep in mind that I feel that you must not look at one product in isolation. That is why I say SPWAW is fine, if looked at alone. If ALL or MOST products followed the pattern we discussed, then it would be a problem.

Does this explanation help you? Sometimes its difficult to articulate a nuance that may be subtle, but quite important.

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Securitas
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88 is a really nice number