War Reports from the East Front II: Carnage vs. Redmarkus

[CarnageINC]

Hello friends,

I finally have time in my life to come back to WitE [8D]. I asked Red if he cared to start up where we left off, early spring of 42 I believe. I wished he would of, it would of been a hell of a summer for the Axis to start any offensives. But after some discussion we decided to start fresh do to the recent changes made to the engine. We talked through some house rules to add some flavor and difficulty for each side.

Here is the list of house rules:

1. No Soviet AF attacks before '43.
2. No Soviet amphib landings prior to Jan '42 and none ever in the north or the map. Also, Soviets can't amphib west of Sevastopol if its captured, same with no amphib west of Odessa if its captured.
3. No Soviet amphib invasion of Romania as long as one Axis combat unit is based in Constantia
4. No pure checker board defense - each player must make a gentlemanly attempt to build a realistic front line. Defense in depth behind that front is allowed, of course.
5. No Romanian gambit to seek early release. If 11th Armee and the Romanians are released early due to creation of Lvov pocket, the Axis player agrees not to move them until their standard release date.
6. No Finnish move/attack until BOTH Leningrad AND Moscow are taken. The reason for this is that the Finns feared Stalin and they made diplomatic guarantees to the Soviets not to go beyond their historical borders. I don't believe they would have changed their view on this unless they were 100% convinced that the SU was beaten for good.
7. Soviet winter offensive deliberate attack limit of 3 Front commands per turn during winter '41-42. Other fronts can only conduct hasty attacks each turn. So, the SU cannot attack deliberately all along the front in any one turn, although you will not know where the main attacks are going to come from. Hopefully, this will make for a more realistic winter. From 42-43 winter onward, anything goes for both sides.
8. If the Axis player pulls his front back more than 5 hexes prior to the start of the winter '41 counter offensive (other than shortening the line, etc.) this is considered a surrender - a coup has occurred and Hitler has been executed.

One other addition on my part is the my wife will 'play' the role the German leadership....i.e. Hitler. She rolled her eyes at me when I asked but she agreed to do it [:D]. She has no real interest in strategy games so it will add some twists to the game. I will be giving her some objective options and she will choose what she which she fancies.

I know this game kind of looks structured but it should add some difficulty for both parties that we wish to have.

I hope that I get some of the old watchers back and some new ones to give me opinions and such, I value different points of view from time to time.

I will get some planning maps up, 2 or 3 options for High Command to choose from and post those soon.

Wish me luck against the filthy commie scourge [:'(].

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC


8. If the Axis player pulls his front back more than 5 hexes prior to the start of the winter '41 counter offensive (other than shortening the line, etc.) this is considered a surrender - a coup has occurred and Hitler has been executed.

One other addition on my part is the my wife will 'play' the role the German leadership....i.e. Hitler. She rolled her eyes at me when I asked but she agreed to do it [:D]. She has no real interest in strategy games so it will add some twists to the game. I will be giving her some objective options and she will choose what she which she fancies.

Strange way of getting a cheapo divorce - just move some cardboard around and you become a widower. You are very brave - mine would just want me to move my armies around to get the colours matching properly.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC


8. If the Axis player pulls his front back more than 5 hexes prior to the start of the winter '41 counter offensive (other than shortening the line, etc.) this is considered a surrender - a coup has occurred and Hitler has been executed.

One other addition on my part is the my wife will 'play' the role the German leadership....i.e. Hitler. She rolled her eyes at me when I asked but she agreed to do it [:D]. She has no real interest in strategy games so it will add some twists to the game. I will be giving her some objective options and she will choose what she which she fancies.

Strange way of getting a cheapo divorce - just move some cardboard around and you become a widower. You are very brave - mine would just want me to move my armies around to get the colours matching properly.

I guess I didn't notice that! That totally cracks me up! [:D] Good one Sillyflower, very good sir [&o]

[CarnageINC]

The following 3 proposals are rough outlines and will be refined once one is chosen.

Here is what Oberkommando des Heeres has proposed to Oberkommando der Wehrmacht for a northern option.

Primary objective of Operation TITAN is to use all 4 Panzer Corps to take Moscow and Leningrad to bring Finland into the war against the Soviet Union.

Strengths: Additional Finnish units to assist in subduing the Soviet threat to Europe.

Weakness: Leaving a large Soviet field force in the southern zone of the theater. Allowing much of the Soviet industrial complex to remain out of Axis control.

[CarnageINC]

Here is what Oberkommando des Heeres has proposed to Oberkommando der Wehrmacht for a central option.

Primary objective of Operation OLYMPIAN is to use all 4 Panzer Corps to take Moscow, Tula and Kursk.

Strengths: Leaves the majority of effective offensive power in a central location for follow-up attacks for either north or south options.

Weakness: Leaves much of the Soviet industrial complex out of Axis control.

[CarnageINC]

Here is what Oberkommando des Heeres has proposed to Oberkommando der Wehrmacht for a southern option.

Primary objective of Operation ODYSSEY is to use all 4 Panzer Corps to take Kursk, Stalino, and Crimean region.

Strengths: Attacks much of the southern Soviet industrial strength, open terrain better suited for concentrated panzer assaults.

Weakness: Leaves much of the Soviet northern industrial complex out of Axis control and does not bring Finland into the war.

[CarnageINC]

I must say the maps are rather too large [:-][:D].

I'm sure there are strengths and weaknesses that I have not seen or thought of for each plan. However my overall strategy is to use all 4 Panzer groups to assault together to reach my objectives. I thought it would be interesting to try this out. If things start going south I may change my strategy and relocate some Panzer divisions.

These are the 3 operations I'm letting my wife choose from. Once she has chosen one I'll refine the operational map giving a order of battle to the map. And again if things don't look to good I reserve the right to change my operational plans. I figure if I give my 'commander' some choices once every year it should cut down on massive changes to plans or micromanagement is she actually does become interested in this stuff [X(].

[veji1]

pretty interesting concept the whole "the wife chooses..." Looking forward to it.

[Klydon]

This should be interesting to say the least. [:D]

I think you meant all 4 panzer armies when you were mentioning panzer "corps".

I also think you consider dividing it up by panzer corps rather than panzer armies. (there are 10 panzer corps). With no threat of panzers, it is really hard for the German infantry to make headway as the Russians know there is no chance of encirclement once they figure things out. If you go south, I would leave at least 2 panzer corps north of the marsh and vice versa. Make your main striking force 7-8 panzer corps and leave two to help present a threat in the other theaters and help the advance.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

This should be interesting to say the least. [:D]

I think you meant all 4 panzer armies when you were mentioning panzer "corps".

I also think you consider dividing it up by panzer corps rather than panzer armies. (there are 10 panzer corps). With no threat of panzers, it is really hard for the German infantry to make headway as the Russians know there is no chance of encirclement once they figure things out. If you go south, I would leave at least 2 panzer corps north of the marsh and vice versa. Make your main striking force 7-8 panzer corps and leave two to help present a threat in the other theaters and help the advance.

Yes Klydon, you are quite correct, I did mean Panzer armees. Good idea of attaching panzer corps to army groups. That should help some for getting some head way with the infantry heavy armies. [;)]

[timmyab]

I think that operation Odyssy is by far the most viable plan although I feel not ambitious enough.With your entire panzer force in the South you might even make it to the Don, although supply would be a major problem.After kursk is taken, one panzer army could turn North towards Tula and Moscow.Its still very good tank country.
Klydon is absolutely right, you need to keep at least one pz corps in the North to threaten Leningrad so as to stop your opponent from stripping that front bare.
Interesting concept.If you can gain enough momentum and make some massive encirclements it might just work.The fact that a large force of armour is going North of the marshes will help to disguise your true intentions.

[Flaviusx]

You realize your wife is going to make you pay for this in the end. [;)]

[Reconvet]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

You realize your wife is going to make you pay for this in the end. [;)]

Certainly not. Carnage will be able to blame his wife for her choices ruining his game, so SHE will have to pay in real life, while ingame her choices can be blamed for any and all failures he may suffer. Realize the full extent of Carnage's double devious strategic talents... [:D]

[Q-Ball]

Interesting Strategic Approach Carnage! What kind of orders are you going to get?

1. Eliminate Offensive Capability of Red Army
2. Target Industry in multi-stage advance on the Dnepr, followed by attack on the Donbas Region
3. Take out the garbage
4. Secure norther flank with attack toward Moscow, via Smolensk and Vyazma
5. How many times have I told you to NOT leave the toilet seat up?
6. Secure Crimean bottlenecks, and dig in preparation for winter
7. Turn the goddamn computer off; not later, NOW!

[Encircled]

One week a month your troops are going to be very grumpy, but excellent assault troops

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: timmyab
With your entire panzer force in the South you might even make it to the Don, although supply would be a major problem.

I also think this is a major drawback of operation "Odyssey". There is no need for using 4 Panzer armies for taking Stalino. Usually 1st Panzer Group is enough if you decide not to go for Crimea (and there is not much there). Using more then one Panzer group in South would make sense if you want to advance further east. But in that case main obstacle will be your supply. I doubt that RR units will be able to follow rapid advance of panzer units causing panzer armies to crawl without fuel after some time.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: Reconvet

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

You realize your wife is going to make you pay for this in the end. [;)]

Certainly not. Carnage will be able to blame his wife for her choices ruining his game, so SHE will have to pay in real life, while ingame her choices can be blamed for any and all failures he may suffer. Realize the full extent of Carnage's double devious strategic talents... [:D]

Mwahahaha!!! Finally someone has seen the brilliance of my plans!

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Interesting Strategic Approach Carnage! What kind of orders are you going to get?

1. Eliminate Offensive Capability of Red Army
2. Target Industry in multi-stage advance on the Dnepr, followed by attack on the Donbas Region
3. Take out the garbage
4. Secure norther flank with attack toward Moscow, via Smolensk and Vyazma
5. How many times have I told you to NOT leave the toilet seat up?
6. Secure Crimean bottlenecks, and dig in preparation for winter
7. Turn the goddamn computer off; not later, NOW!

LOL!!! [:D] Good one Q-Ball [:D]

[CarnageINC]

High command has finally decided which option to go for and has given me the reasons for doing so.

I am here by under orders to proceed with Operation Odyssey. Reasons for choice of objectives are weather and vacation related.....[8|]

Leningrad is too cold, Finnish people have to white of complexions....Moscow to dreary, its been rumored to have too many 'loose' women around....the Black Sea...perfect weather for a summer vacation....[X(]

Yep....we're going to war with the big mighty bear for beach front property around the Black Sea people...no joke...[:D][:'(][8|]

I plan on modifying 'Odyssey' for using only 3 of the 4 panzer armees. Emir Agic has pointed out a major reason for a plan modification.

[paullus99]

Good a reason as any......[:D]