What is the defination of "Gamey"?

[jmalter]

seems to me that 'gamey' is a pejorative that's thrown out against any unusual tactic that's unexpectedly successful, & that the folks who throw the 'gamey' card usually reinforce their argument by stating that the tactic is 'ahistorical'. I just can't buy that.

Let's remember that we're playing a game, & while the context of the game is delimited by the historical situation (including initial production capabilities & automatic reinforcements), the game-play that evolves between players is limited only by the use each player makes of his available options (as defined by the game-engine).

Presumably, every player is playing 'to win', he'll want to maximize his available options in order to inflict damage on his foe, while avoiding damage to his own forces. Every player must do his best to achieve that result *within the context of the game simulation*, using the tools that the game-system allows him to use. Similarly, each player must defend against imaginative or unusual enemy tactics to his best ability, *within the context of the game simulation*.

If I was playing some kinda Madden EA game & learned that i could score by throwing to Tyrell Owens on every play, that's what i'd do. If i was defending against TO & needed to double-team him on every play to prevent an automatic touchdown, well i'm gonna go w/ that. Is either tactic 'gamey', or is it the best choice i can make to maximize my chances to win?

I've read about a lot of options that are posited as req'ments for AE PBEM play, house-rules such as 'no 4E NavAttack below 10K', no 'para-frags', no 2ndary PH attacks, LRCAP only at high altitude, whatever. It all seems to me that folks aren't wanting to step up & play the game 'as written', that they want to save themselves some trouble & only play the game on terms that they feel are advantageous to their own style of play, rather than risk their game to an opponent who's got full freedom of action.

IIRC, WWII in the PTO became a 'total war' situation, each side was committed to inflicting maximum hurt on the enemy. Given the option, they would've paid no attention to 'historical' constraints on splitting/resizing airgroups - so why should we as virtual re-enactors?

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510
I have an interesting recipe from a farmer that deals with soaking said game in condensed milk overnight, then frying.... he claims the "gamey" taste is completely gone...need to try it this fall.

Friend of mine, next door, gave me a bag of 16 pheasant breasts after one of his hunts. Finally defrosted them and marinated them in a decent Port (Fonseca, Bin 27), garlic, onion, bay leaves and cardomom. Will slow grill half, and serve with wild rice, greens and an Italian salad. Other half, I'll slow smoke to 80% done and give to folks hereabouts.

Had pheasant back in Cali that were marinated in Port and they were good. Also like pheasant straight up. Like dove straight up. Like wild duck straight up. Like damn near anything ya shoot, straight up, except for big mammals; deer and goats, and such ought to hang for two days, moose and bears ought to hang for four days. After that, marinade makes it tender and pulls the gaminess out. There's a reason the Germans invented sauerbraten; and why God invented wine/vinegar and onions and piquant spices.

I think I'm drooling at my desk...mmmhh [:)]

[bradfordkay]

jmalter... you apparently don't understand the reason for some of the house rules.

Level bombers have proven to be far more accurate against shipping in the game than they were in real life, if flown at optimum bombing altitude (7-8K). Thus many of us prefer to limit the big boys to 10k or higher in order to have the hit percentage reflect the actual situation better.

If a player were to paradrop just a couple of squads of troops onto his opponent's retreat route, he can force the surrender of an army of any size that is forced to retreat into the hex with those few squads of paratroops. Does it seem realistic to you that, say, twenty men could prevent the retreat and force the surrender of an army of, say, 250,000 men?

These are two of your examples that I wanted to show you why many folks have written house rules to cover. You might not feel that there is anything wrong with using those tactics. Fine... just be sure that you let any prospective PBEM opponent know how you feel before starting up a game. This way you will be able to find a compatible opponent and are less likely to having a falling out with him...

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

jmalter... you apparently don't understand the reason for some of the house rules.

Level bombers have proven to be far more accurate against shipping in the game than they were in real life, if flown at optimum bombing altitude (7-8K). Thus many of us prefer to limit the big boys to 10k or higher in order to have the hit percentage reflect the actual situation better.

If a player were to paradrop just a couple of squads of troops onto his opponent's retreat route, he can force the surrender of an army of any size that is forced to retreat into the hex with those few squads of paratroops. Does it seem realistic to you that, say, twenty men could prevent the retreat and force the surrender of an army of, say, 250,000 men?

These are two of your examples that I wanted to show you why many folks have written house rules to cover. You might not feel that there is anything wrong with using those tactics. Fine... just be sure that you let any prospective PBEM opponent know how you feel before starting up a game. This way you will be able to find a compatible opponent and are less likely to having a falling out with him...

While I haven't personaly noticed the 1st , I have the second.Both strike me as excellent possible reasons for house rules. The problems I have , is that while many "flaws" have been researched , evidence given, and generally excepted by the community in general, there are many "so called flaws" that actually are working as designed, but to some players "seem" gamey. Hence Brady had subjects for many of his "History is gamey" posts.

While I'm no expert on virtually any of the games aspects or attributes, I do tend to look at any claim of "gamey" as bogus till proven real. (My variation of innocent till proven guilty). If someone sees something that's suspcious , sing out to the community , and hopefully that someone, or someone else will do some research and experiments, to suggest , or disprove a problem. Then action (such as houserules) can be taken.

This requires research , paitience and self discipline. Too many people raise the "gamey flag", way too soon. What we need to do is , in the words of a former instructor of mine , "seperate the fly shit from the pepper". That's hard. But it's the only way.

So from what I've seen here , if I'm correct is that there are legitimate flaws , that require house rules or other compensation. BUT we need to look at each one , examine it closely, and with reluctance ,then act.

And lose the "gamey" word. It inflames and antagonizes. How about we say, "that's flawed". That suggest a program problem. "Gamey" implies unethical behavior or even downright cheating. [:)]

[bradfordkay]

Steve... you might note that my post never once used the term "gamey". Instead I pointed out reasons for a couple of the house rules to which the previous poster had objected.

I noticed the first issue early on in UV and started limiting the altitudes at which my level bombers could perform naval attacks in order not to slaughter the AI's shipping too early. I do temper my own rules: B24s must stay above 10k on naval attack, PB4Ys don't have to being that they were navy crews and their doctrine was for lower level attacks. If this starts to prove too accurate, then PB4Ys will start flying higher...

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Steve... you might note that my post never once used the term "gamey". Instead I pointed out reasons for a couple of the house rules to which the previous poster had objected.

I noticed the first issue early on in UV and started limiting the altitudes at which my level bombers could perform naval attacks in order not to slaughter the AI's shipping too early. I do temper my own rules: B24s must stay above 10k on naval attack, PB4Ys don't have to being that they were navy crews and their doctrine was for lower level attacks. If this starts to prove too accurate, then PB4Ys will start flying higher...

Brad I understand that you didn't use the word "gamey". That's fine. But may I direct your attention to the title of the thread? [:D] Gamey is all over this thread. In fact IT is the thread. So fair warning; it doesn't matter if you use it or not, I pretty much gareenteeeee you, I'm going to! [:D]

I agree , I've heard of the complaint about low flying bombers, but as I said, I've not experinced. The one thing I've noticed in real life in 23+ years of USN/USNR patrol bombers, the lower we flew, the more likely we were to hit something. And strangley enough, the less likely we were to get caught or hit (except for bird stikes....those went WAY up. And some of the big birds is like getting hit by a 23 mm!).

I've interviewed quite a few of those WW2 Navy patrol bomber crews, and they were all pretty much universally adament that they WERE extremely deadly at low altittude! Many of the Privateers didn't even have bomb sights. As one former AO1 (who attacked as the bombadier..the USN didn't have officer bombardiers till the 1960's) "when your less than 200' who needs a bombsight! What you need is a freakin' (my word, not his) blindfold!" [:D]

As I said earlier. There really isn't any doubt that there is a need for House rules (and you gave two classic examples). But some of us feel that the house rules are often overused.[:)]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: jmalter

seems to me that 'gamey' is a pejorative that's thrown out against any unusual tactic that's unexpectedly successful, & that the folks who throw the 'gamey' card usually reinforce their argument by stating that the tactic is 'ahistorical'. I just can't buy that.

Let's remember that we're playing a game, & while the context of the game is delimited by the historical situation (including initial production capabilities & automatic reinforcements), the game-play that evolves between players is limited only by the use each player makes of his available options (as defined by the game-engine).

Presumably, every player is playing 'to win', he'll want to maximize his available options in order to inflict damage on his foe, while avoiding damage to his own forces. Every player must do his best to achieve that result *within the context of the game simulation*, using the tools that the game-system allows him to use. Similarly, each player must defend against imaginative or unusual enemy tactics to his best ability, *within the context of the game simulation*.

If I was playing some kinda Madden EA game & learned that i could score by throwing to Tyrell Owens on every play, that's what i'd do. If i was defending against TO & needed to double-team him on every play to prevent an automatic touchdown, well i'm gonna go w/ that. Is either tactic 'gamey', or is it the best choice i can make to maximize my chances to win?

I've read about a lot of options that are posited as req'ments for AE PBEM play, house-rules such as 'no 4E NavAttack below 10K', no 'para-frags', no 2ndary PH attacks, LRCAP only at high altitude, whatever. It all seems to me that folks aren't wanting to step up & play the game 'as written', that they want to save themselves some trouble & only play the game on terms that they feel are advantageous to their own style of play, rather than risk their game to an opponent who's got full freedom of action.

IIRC, WWII in the PTO became a 'total war' situation, each side was committed to inflicting maximum hurt on the enemy. Given the option, they would've paid no attention to 'historical' constraints on splitting/resizing airgroups - so why should we as virtual re-enactors?

It sounds as if you agree with me. [:)]

You bring up an important point of inflection in this topic, where a mass of players go down one arm of the decision tree, and the rest of us go the other way. That is on the issue of "historical." Having played WITP and AE now for about seven years I have little patience for these arguments. Falling back on "historical" is a prescription for an infinte series of digressions. An intellectually honest argument can't pick and choose between micro "ahistoricals" such as 4E bomber altitude effectiveness while ignoring macro political considerations such as the Allied player's inability to change from a Europe-first posture, or the absence, more or less, of colonialism from the geo-politics of the game.

The only solution to me is to play the game as coded. If that code includes changes made in the editor, fine, so long as this is known and agreed to. But picking and choosing one's history is, as you say, ultimately about one side wanting an advantage the devs didn't give them.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

If a player were to paradrop just a couple of squads of troops onto his opponent's retreat route, he can force the surrender of an army of any size that is forced to retreat into the hex with those few squads of paratroops. Does it seem realistic to you that, say, twenty men could prevent the retreat and force the surrender of an army of, say, 250,000 men?

Except logical excursions like this demand that the next question be asked: Exactly HOW MANY squads COULD block a retreat route? Does terrain matter? Device arrays and upgrades? Leadership? Terms like "parafrags" are exactly the sort of sloppy terminology displaying sloppy logic which I'm speaking to.

Not to mention that it's not the paratroops which are the problem, it's allowing your 250,000 men to be so beaten that they need to retreat.

Your way demands we all become lawyers. My way only demands we play the game as designed.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Terms like "parafrags" are exactly the sort of sloppy terminology displaying sloppy logic which I'm speaking to.

[sigh]...No, Bullwinkle, most PBEM gamers understand what this term means-splitting a parachute regiment into large multiples of small penny packet attackers in order to capture multiple untended objectives in short order. Usually single digits (sometimes only AV=1 or 2) will suffice for this technique.

You may not like the term as being imprecise, but use of common parlance does not suggest 'sloppy logic', mate. Then again, this may not be common parlance for you, as this practice does not seem to be used by the computer AI much.

Paratroops useage in some circumstances are a potential problem with the game engine. Dumping a few squads of paratroops onto a hex that your ground LCUs are also attacking that turn give additional die benefits. Perhaps this has been corrected in the latest official patch, dunno. Rationalizing how this is *not* a problem in realistic gameplay is sloppy logic.

Thakfully, mercifully, limiting the problems attendant with 'parafrags' does not presuppose that I be a lawyer. It does presuppose open communication re: expectations with human partners. Again, this may not be an issue for an AI player, but it is and has been for those of us preferring PBEMs.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
The only solution to me is to play the game as coded. If that code includes changes made in the editor, fine, so long as this is known and agreed to. But picking and choosing one's history is, as you say, ultimately about one side wanting an advantage the devs didn't give them.

This is generally how PBEMers play. With the possible / probable addition of house rules. The HRs address those things that *can* happen with gameplay as coded that are recognized as problematic to gameplay between two humans. Since you don't have a 'toggle' switch for things like paragrag units on the setup screen, play against the AI will-by design-be without HRs.

Thankfully, mercifully, there's more flexibility in addressing gameplay issues in a PBEM setting. We are our toggle switches. We can implement gameplay changes on a whim, infinitely faster than it can be coded. Ain't it great?

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: jmalter

seems to me that 'gamey' is a pejorative that's thrown out against any unusual tactic that's unexpectedly successful, & that the folks who throw the 'gamey' card usually reinforce their argument by stating that the tactic is 'ahistorical'. I just can't buy that.

Presumably, every player is playing 'to win', he'll want to maximize his available options in order to inflict damage on his foe, while avoiding damage to his own forces. Every player must do his best to achieve that result *within the context of the game simulation*, using the tools that the game-system allows him to use. Similarly, each player must defend against imaginative or unusual enemy tactics to his best ability, *within the context of the game simulation*.

Your correct.....however there are situations where your basic presumption is not applicable. Many players are looking to experience as much as possible the war that the 'game' in question is trying to represent and as such they are looking for a gratifying experience, not just "to win" Because the game 'is' a game however smart players can quickly find and exploit loopholes in the rules and/or take advantage of discovered quirks, some of which might be labeled 'gamey' by one or more participants. If both sides are in agreement on an aspect that one or both feels takes away from the feel of the game, they might HR it. Some people use alot of HR's....some a few....some none at all.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Terms like "parafrags" are exactly the sort of sloppy terminology displaying sloppy logic which I'm speaking to.

[sigh]...No, Bullwinkle, most PBEM gamers understand what this term means-splitting a parachute regiment into large multiples of small penny packet attackers in order to capture multiple untended objectives in short order. Usually single digits (sometimes only AV=1 or 2) will suffice for this technique.

You may not like the term as being imprecise, but use of common parlance does not suggest 'sloppy logic', mate. Then again, this may not be common parlance for you, as this practice does not seem to be used by the computer AI much.

Paratroops useage in some circumstances are a potential problem with the game engine. Dumping a few squads of paratroops onto a hex that your ground LCUs are also attacking that turn give additional die benefits. Perhaps this has been corrected in the latest official patch, dunno. Rationalizing how this is *not* a problem in realistic gameplay is sloppy logic.

Thakfully, mercifully, limiting the problems attendant with 'parafrags' does not presuppose that I be a lawyer. It does presuppose open communication re: expectations with human partners. Again, this may not be an issue for an AI player, but it is and has been for those of us preferring PBEMs.

Ah, so another backhanded slap at AI players? Par. You got polling results from the PBEM community?

Look, instead of dodging the quesiton, confront it. "Most PBEM players" is yet MORE sloppy terminology, and you're hiding behind it.

Go this way. Drop "frag" anything; it's imprecise. (So is "quirks" as used elsewhere in this thread.) I'll give you the whole damn regiment. Is THAT enough to stop 250,000 retreating troops, you know, "historically"? Where did this happen?

Or, forget paras. If I sneak/march a regiment-sized anything in behind you is that "fair"? Is it "historical"? Or is cutting supply lines 40-miles away just not cricket, old man?

Is a whole division enough to stop those quarter-million crazed runners? How big a division? What if it's a division which is only at 70% of TOE? The questions, once you leave the code, never end. Maybe "most" PBEM players give up arguing, or maybe they don't care, or maybe they're afraid if they express their true "What the frick!?" their true-blue PBEM guy will stomp off. I don't know. I don't have polling.

Any defense of HRs which rests on "Well, everybody who's anybody just KNOWS" reeks of nose-in-the-air eliteism. Everybody DOESN'T "just know" or there wouldn't be hundreds, yes hundreds, of threads in this forum asking "Is this gamey?"

[bradfordkay]

"Not to mention that it's not the paratroops which are the problem, it's allowing your 250,000 men to be so beaten that they need to retreat."

Gee... are you trying to say that there is no way an army of 250k men can be forced to retreat? When you attack someone's post, please try to do it in a reasonable manner...

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Terms like "parafrags" are exactly the sort of sloppy terminology displaying sloppy logic which I'm speaking to.

[sigh]...No, Bullwinkle, most PBEM gamers understand what this term means-splitting a parachute regiment into large multiples of small penny packet attackers in order to capture multiple untended objectives in short order. Usually single digits (sometimes only AV=1 or 2) will suffice for this technique.

You may not like the term as being imprecise, but use of common parlance does not suggest 'sloppy logic', mate. Then again, this may not be common parlance for you, as this practice does not seem to be used by the computer AI much.

Paratroops useage in some circumstances are a potential problem with the game engine. Dumping a few squads of paratroops onto a hex that your ground LCUs are also attacking that turn give additional die benefits. Perhaps this has been corrected in the latest official patch, dunno. Rationalizing how this is *not* a problem in realistic gameplay is sloppy logic.

Thakfully, mercifully, limiting the problems attendant with 'parafrags' does not presuppose that I be a lawyer. It does presuppose open communication re: expectations with human partners. Again, this may not be an issue for an AI player, but it is and has been for those of us preferring PBEMs.

Ah, so another backhanded slap at AI players? Par. You got polling results from the PBEM community?

Nope. It's a different game with different gameplay between these two modes. If you fail to recognize that, you are mistaken. It's that simple.

Look, instead of dodging the quesiton, confront it. "Most PBEM players" is yet MORE sloppy terminology, and you're hiding behind it.

Sorry mate. I think it goes unsaid that the word most here means most PBEM players does not mean all PBEM players. I don't know all PBEM players. "Most" is used to summarize what I believe to be the predominance of players that have made their observations known. Not hiding behind anything. You too could dispense with the polemics. You're usually above that.

Go this way. Drop "frag" anything; it's imprecise. (So is "quirks" as used elsewhere in this thread.) I'll give you the whole damn regiment. Is THAT enough to stop 250,000 retreating troops, you know, "historically"? Where did this happen?

Or, forget paras. If I sneak/march a regiment-sized anything in behind you is that "fair"? Is it "historical"? Or is cutting supply lines 40-miles away just not cricket, old man?

Is a whole division enough to stop those quarter-million crazed runners? How big a division? What if it's a division which is only at 70% of TOE? The questions, once you leave the code, never end. Maybe "most" PBEM players give up arguing, or maybe they don't care, or maybe they're afraid if they express their true "What the frick!?" their true-blue PBEM guy will stomp off. I don't know. I don't have polling.

A corps or Army would likely be sufficient to stop a 250,000 sized army from retreating through its hex. A squad of paratroops, no. Everything else between is subjective gray zone. You want precise figures for your shifting target-no can do.

I've never heard of a mutually accepted HR that would not permit your infantry regiment cutoff scenario. Many apparently find the ogre of parafrags (my term-I'll use it thank you) much more unpalatable. Dunno why it be, but it be.

Any defense of HRs which rests on "Well, everybody who's anybody just KNOWS" reeks of nose-in-the-air eliteism. Everybody DOESN'T "just know" or there wouldn't be hundreds, yes hundreds, of threads in this forum asking "Is this gamey?"

No, what smacks of nose in the air elitism is your suggestion that HRs are untenable for most PBEM games. They are a necessary evil to clear up issues before engaging in a yearlong bout with another human. Hence my still unanswered account for a full AE AAR (that went the distance) with no HRs. In the real world, playing a real person, they are needed much more often than not. Against a computer-massively different gameplay-they may not be. With all due respect, you're not in a position to judge based on your limited experiences.

HRs address PBEM play. Full stop. They impact PBEM play, not play versus the AI. If you haven't ever played a PBEM either with or without HRs, you've got limited idea of their value in competing against a real person. Sorry if you take this personally, but that's what it is. It's not a backhanded slap, Bullwinkle58, it's a recitation of fact.

There are dozens or hundreds of different HRs in use. Some games have more than others. "Standard" HRs have been widespread to address "standard" problems with the PBEM gameplay. These HRs are agreed upon rules of conduct before hostilities commence. Don't like the HRs proposed? There are hundreds-yes hundreds-of threads in this forum looking for different partners who see eye-to-eye with them on HRs. Usually they find a match somewhere.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: USS America

Steve-O, I'm afraid you might be tilting at windmills again.  You're not going to be able to define what moves/tactics/sneaky tricks are or are not gamey to anyone's satisfaction, except your own.  I know you well enough to know you would usually prefer as close to "no holes barred" as you can get an opponent to accept.  I think that's the answer you are looking for, and the only one that matters for you, except that of any opponents you engage.  [:)]

You'll sooner solve the Federal budget problems than get everyone here to agree that any single issue is or is not gamey.  [:D]

Not necessarilly true Mike. My only real requirement for house rules acceptance is "show me where one person that I trust makes the case that it's necessary". That means any one from Matrix, only any of the non-employess that helped build the game, or any one VERY knowledgable about the game. That includes automatically any of the "GrandMasters". I don't oppose houserules. I simply want to have it proven to me that we need them. I do not belive in exchanging one monster for another. And quite often , in my humble view, a house rule simply shifts the advantage from one party to another . In other words I view house rules as often gamey themselves.

As far as the Federal budget goes, I can easily solve that! But until my plan for global world domination comes to fruition , the budget will have to remain the problem of the people we are PAYING to solve it. [:D]

Steve, my good friend, has it been long enough now to quote you quoting my quote again? [:D]

Another valiant effort with the best of intentions, buddy, but I think I told 'ya so. Gamey, HR's, and any combination of them are a personal thing that needs to be worked out between individuals. There will never be 100% agreement on any single issue (including the definition of gamey) among the forum members.

We love you, St. Stephen!

Edit: BTW, they did at least make progress on the federal budget, even if it's not "fixed", before any consensus was reached here. [:'(]

[Mynok]

As has been said already, it's all about the opponents coming to a mutual agreement on how they want to play. There's no "right" way to play the game, except in the sense that it should be fun for both sides. Bullwinkle and jmalter have a legitimate way they prefer to play, as do bradfordkay and others along the more 'historically constrained' line of thought.

AE can certainly accomodate both and it does. Most issues of 'gaminess' I see and have seen arise during AARs is when one player is blind sided by something he was not aware of. At that point it becomes a matter of discussion between the opponents who can hopefully come to a reasoned and mutual agreement.

I would always recommend to anyone starting a game with a new opponent to play a scenario first. This allows both sides to feel each other out and get a sense of each other's playing style.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"Not to mention that it's not the paratroops which are the problem, it's allowing your 250,000 men to be so beaten that they need to retreat."

Gee... are you trying to say that there is no way an army of 250k men can be forced to retreat? When you attack someone's post, please try to do it in a reasonable manner...

No, I'm saying saying do what generals since Sargon the Great have done--secure your line of retreat. Don't put every stinkin' LCU in one mega-stack. Put out flankers. Use your mobile units as mobile units. When you go into Indian Country know how you're going to get out. And, when your 250,000 extravaganza starts to crack, don't stick around until retreat is your only option.

But mostly, if you let 25 paratroops beat you, understand you screwed up, not the code.

[Bullwinkle58]

Again, you fail to grapple with the basic issue.

I'm done here.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Again, you fail to grapple with the basic issue.

I'm done here.

OK. Ciao. I think mayhaps we have different understandings of what the basic issue is. Doesn't seem like we're communicating well, so probably best to call it a day.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like to continue this discussion.

[Chickenboy]

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