Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+

[Peltonx]

Start of turn 106. 32 turns into the Russian offensive of 1943. Remember I sealed of Leningrad on turn 4 and bagged everything, plus I took out a total of 70 ARM pts which is more then historical. Orel to Rostov by the end of the 41 summer offensive.

Not much I can do now after all the 1v1 = 2v1 attacks form turns 74 to 94 the German army was turned into a pile of Italians because of a fairytale rule. River defenses are useless, because 1v1 = 2v1.The summer O is about to begin, not really anything I can do his CV are so high that every hexe can be taken because of the 1v1=2v1. So its basicly an auto win and retreat for the Russians now whenever they attack.

On turn 105 Hoops attacked 85 times an won 71 times lost 14.

From turn 96 to 106 Hooopers manpower has stayed at 8.1 milliom. Many of these turns were mud turns.

Russian losses the last 10 turns 400,000 men, Guns 10000, Tanks 3,000
German Losses the last 10 turns 300,000 men, Guns 5500, Tanks 900

Russian OOB changes +20,000 men, Guns +000,Tanks +1800
German OOB changes +30,000 men, Guns +700, Tanks +400

So the last 10 turns I am holding my own as far as the war of attrition goes, but I am lossing allot of hexes every turn.

[Peltonx]

AGC

[Peltonx]

AGS

[Peltonx]

OOB

[Peltonx]

Dead

[sveint]

I completely agree that the 1v1 = 2v1 rule has to go.

[timmyab]

I'm afraid that it does look more and more like the SU is overpowered from the blizzard onwards.From then on their strength seems to be about a year ahead of what it should be both historically and in order to make an exciting campaign game for both players.My thinking at the moment is that the most important missing link is the historical incompetence of the Soviet leadership in the early war.Perhaps what we are seeing in the game is what would have happened in real life if the Russians had had better leaders from the outset.Difficult thing to replicate but I think that something does need to be done to handicap the SU in 41 and 42.

[Peltonx]

The key to any game of wite is production with or without the 1v1=2v1, fort issues and moral issues.

Hoooper did a very good job of railing out prodution and keeping my spearheads under control, other then Leningrad.

I did not attack much during the 42 summer, bucause I figured I just dig in and try and counter attack.

This option for the German player because of the 1v1 = 2v1 is a huge mistake. You must attack during the 42 summer and get atleast 2.6 to 1 in losses. If you choose to wait you get steamrolled from turn 74 on as per current rules.

Pelton

[tigercub]

+1

ORIGINAL: sveint

I completely agree that the 1v1 = 2v1 rule has to go.

[Peltonx]

I would say that it should go at some point in 42.

April after the blizzard. The blizzard seems about right at this point.

They have gotten from June 41 to April 42 about right. Hopefully enough play testing from players and they can get the 42 - 45 stuff right.

[kfmiller41]

Although I am not as fanatical[:D] about the 1-1, 2-1 rule as Pelton is, in my game which is in winter 43 I have suffered over 9,9 million casualties as the Russian player and have front line forces of 8 million and an steadily pushing the german forces back. I am farther east than the Russians in this game due to a massive german attack in 42 which chopped up alot of troops and cost me about 100 miles of depth of front and Kharkov. Despite that I have been on the offensive ever since and have not felt threatened even in the summer. My feeling is that maybe the modifier should be taken away some time in 42. The soviet army can defend itself just fine if played well and the Germans should side should be able to have an offensive push in 42, I was ready for one and they still broke thru my lines. Made for an interesting battle and I would have probably withdrawn if not for knowing I could win most counter attacks (I am sure the modifier helped in my decision to attack). I came to this conclusion after starting a PBEM game in the 42 campaign, and that is an eye opener[X(]for the Russian side on the first turn compared to anything i have seem in the full campaign.

[76mm]

I think that the biggest problem with the game after 1942 is the Sovs don't get punished enough in 1941 and 1942, perhaps principally because they can abandon huge swathes of the country, including most of their major cities, with little penalty (as long as they can evac the industry).

I think that this freedom is unrealistic and creates problems in game balance, because it makes it much easier for the Sovs to avoid huge losses via pockets and end up with a bigger army than historical, more of which can be deployed in the south because Lgrad has almost always been taken and there is nothing else worth taking up north.

[Peltonx]

I have played games where the Red does the Hill Billy tactic and runs for the hills, but I have been able to destory allot of production and have very little problem smashing the Red army in the summer of 42.

So your pt 76mm does hold true, but the 1v1=2v1 is just a joke that is based on nothing historical.

If 42 is a stalemate or even a minor win for the German player, because of the 1v1=2v1 rule 42 quickly turns into 44. No skill required. The Red player is 100% safe an can simply mindlessly attack all along the front and be 100% sure no matter what he does there is nothing the German player can do. There is no stalemate year of 43 as is historical. As can be seen in this thread from turn 74 to 90 the German army is turned into a bunch of usless units mostly because of the 1v1=2v1 rule.

Tweaking moral and forts ect will not turn the flying pig rule into something historical.

Pelton

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Pelton
If 42 is a stalemate or even a minor win for the German player, because of the 1v1=2v1 rule 42 quickly turns into 44. No skill required. The Red player is 100% safe an can simply mindlessly attack all along the front and be 100% sure no matter what he does there is nothing the German player can do.

Well, I've always been ambivalent about the 1:1 rule and don't really have a strong opinion about it now, but I do think that if Sovs players are weaker in 1942, 1942 is not going to resemble 1944. I also don't think that "there is nothing the German player can do," as the Sovs should be stretched thin somewhere in 1942 (unless they had really light losses), and the German should be able to take advantage.

[Q-Ball]

At the risk of hyjacking the thread, the problem with fixing 1942 is that you don't want to screw up 1943 and 1944. It's a a problem.

I think in general the Germans need more help after 1941. I have some ideas, but I don't know how you can make 1942 mobile, without completely messing up 43-45. If you nerf trenches, that will have an impact on the Germans. If you address the 2-1 thing, that doesn't help the Wehrmacht on attack in 1942.

The problem is the Soviets have the ability to build defenses in depth, and defenses in depth is how you stop Panzers.

[Klydon]

The 2-1 issue does have consequences for the Germans in the attack simply because they have to plan on making any encirclements larger and tougher if possible to try to encircle any units since it is so easy for the Russians to bump panzers in the open out of the way to break pockets. 

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The 2-1 issue does have consequences for the Germans in the attack simply because they have to plan on making any encirclements larger and tougher if possible to try to encircle any units since it is so easy for the Russians to bump panzers in the open out of the way to break pockets. 

I will take some issue with this. Not so much because of the claim that it is fairly easy to bump the panzers in order to relieve a pocket, but rather the mindset that once a pocket is created, the end result of that pocket should be a foregone conclusion. As what I feel to be a rather competent Axis player, and reasonably competent Soviet player, I generally assume that any pocket that I create on Turn N as the Axis, will likely not be truly sealed until my Turn N+1. That is, I expect and plan for multi-turn "moving pocket" battles. I expect that my initial encirclement may very well be broken on the first turn the pocket is created, but plan for a followup to further seal the pocket the next turn, and thrash those counterattacking forces that have temporarily relieved the pocket.

In short, if you see the creation and reduction of pockets as a more continuous process, that is expected to take multiple turns, you can often get better results.

Another thing to consider is that not all Axis victories need result from pocketing troops. The threat of pocketing can often cause the enemy to displace from his well fortified areas, leading to battles fought in more favorable terrain, when they are finished retreating out of position. Well planned Axis attacks can still easily get 3:1 to 4:1 loss ratios against the Soviets, without pocketing. This can put the hurt on the Soviets in terms of manpower.

[Peltonx]

42 is an issue but not that big of a deal.

The big deal is after turn 74 the German player is 100% screwed because of the 1v1=2v1 rule.

I have never had a problem making pockets at all during 42. They are harder to make, but not that big of a deal.

The summer of 42 in most cases is hard which it should be.

There is 100% nothing the German player can do after turn 74, nothing. The Red army can make about 40+ attacks a turn most based on the 1v1=2v1. Read this thread completely and not 1/2 of it. I give a turn by turn and 10 turn breakdowns. Again,

The big deal is after turn 74 the German player is 100% screwed because of the 1v1=2v1 rule.

I am 100% fine with the 1v1=2v1 until Jan 1 43.

With all things being equal after 42 the game is a total joke.

Forts,moral, supply ect ect will never make that 1v1=2v1 pig fly past 42.

Pelton

[Peltonx]

If you screw with forts, moral or logistics it messes up the game come late 43 to 45.

The devs want to screw with historical things and save a flying pig rule. What gives?

This this a historical game or is it based on fantasy?

Throw the stupid rule out, it completely screws the game come 43.

Is the game engine so gimp that it has to be save by a flying pig rule?

[Klydon]

With all due respect, this has not been borne out in the vast majority of AARs since 1.04 went final (and towards the tail end of the betas). I am not saying it doesn't happen, but when I see a stack of panzers get bumped all to easily; most often by a 1:1 becoming a 2:1, then it becomes an exercise in futility to even attempt small encirclements.  All too often, the Germans have a choice of attacking against multiple 4 deep fortified lines of level 3 and 4 forts or turtle themselves. From what I have observed, this takes on a Kursk like quality for the Germans in terms of trying to make headway and casualties they take trying to get through a line to get some room to force the Russians out of their fortifications. Germans doing straight up attacks does not bode well for them in terms of casualty ratios at all in most cases.