A little outside of the box thinking...WitP 2.0

[centex2611]

WitP AE 2 - A little outside of the box thinking

Outside of the obvious combat/execution model issues that continue to be resolved mainly through database changes (especially in mods like DaBabes), the major issue with WitP is modelling production better - both Japanese and Allied - and most importantly, giving the Allies some strategic reaction ability

-(ie the Japanese did X thus we want to do Y but the reinforcement/replacement model for the Allies dictates only Z is possible...)-

It occurs to me that it could be possible to develop a production model that perhaps runs through an outside application like WitP Tracker.

For example - Tracker pulls all the information out of the save file already. Now it becomes just a matter of writing some information back into the save file. Rough thoughts would be something like:

Allies already produce and stockpile heavy industry points (they also stockpile manpower - but I don't think this is stored by nationality...). This number is stored somewhere in the save file. An AE "Production App" could be built or even incorporated into Tracker that allows one to expend these HI points to expand things like:

- Allied aircraft production
- Start construction of ships that get added to the reinforcement queue
- Build new land units
- Build replacement items for land units
- Or even build new HI plants

A whole Allied economic model could be built up around this.

This has a real benefit to the game also as in reality neither side really knew exactly what the other side was building. There are complications in modelling units withdrawing and/or arriving for the Allies though.

This concept could obviously be extended to incorporate things like:

1) scrapping ships in construction - returning some level of HI points

2) maybe even some introducing some randomness in future aircraft stats for Japan (or the Allies) by changing the aircraft model stats when the a/c becomes available by +-5-10% or something like that (speed, mvr, durab, etc)

3) the same concept could be applied to Japan as well with ships which then advance on the normal method of shipyard points required to advance them in the queue

4) basically all production in progress once the game starts is still in progress, things started after Dec 7, 41 is subject to the player deciding to lay down that ship hull, etc. (costing for Japan the SYPs to advance the ship in the queue and costing some HI value based on class, tonnage, etc. for the Allies)

The nice thing is the game execution engine - WitP AE - already exists, all we're doing is sending data changes to the save file.

[LoBaron]

This wont work.

WitP balance relies heavily on an Allied disadvantage in unit quality/numbers and lack of specific assets throughout the first long months.

Giving the Allied player the ability to divert production to those assets that are most effective (e.g. heavy bombers, attack bombers, carriers,...)
instead of assets they simply had to work with (masses of old AKs, top heavy and underequipped gound forces, outdated torpedoes,...),
would imbalance the game completely and turn it into science fiction, no game with a half decent Allied player would last beyond summer 43.
The Allied economy and unit availability in WitP reflects the US/CW investment in the European theatre, and this is intended and historical.

Scen#1 perfectly reflects the Japanese shortcomings (with a few exceptions) and limits the flexibility of the Japanese player well enough to create a historical
war. Scen#2 is another story but it was built like this for a purpose.


You know what I want for WitP 3?
drag&drop, multitasking, rightklick-select, shift/ctrl select, interface personalisation, zoomable map, extended map overlays, window configuration, window transparency, simply said: a 21st century interface.
[;)]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

This wont work.

WitP balance relies heavily on an Allied disadvantage in unit quality/numbers and lack of specific assets throughout the first long months.

Giving the Allied player the ability to divert production to those assets that are most effective (e.g. heavy bombers, attack bombers, carriers,...)
instead of assets they simply had to work with (masses of old AKs, top heavy and underequipped gound forces, outdated torpedoes,...),
would imbalance the game completely and turn it into science fiction, no game with a half decent Allied player would last beyond summer 43.
The Allied economy and unit availability in WitP reflects the US/CW investment in the European theatre, and this is intended and historical.

Scen#1 perfectly reflects the Japanese shortcomings (with a few exceptions) and limits the flexibility of the Japanese player well enough to create a historical
war. Scen#2 is another story but it was built like this for a purpose.


You know what I want for WitP 3?
drag&drop, multitasking, rightklick-select, shift/ctrl select, interface personalisation, zoomable map, extended map overlays, window configuration, window transparency, simply said: a 21st century interface.
[;)]

+1

Michael's been doing a lot of UI improvements in the beta, but there are so many inherent limits.

[el cid again]

I have similar thoughts to Contex2611 on this matter. And in a minor way, I have begun to experiment with some remedies.

Most obvious to me is this

What if the war is going badly? Would the Allies have stopped production to the degree they did when they were winning the war?
Of course not. Yet the game forces the Allies to suffer from exactly the same choices, never mind they would not be made.

The fix for that is pretty easy: just keep up production. So in my first past test mod - I did things like not end aircraft production -
if the plane is not replaced by another similar plane - but continue it until game end. I also did not reduce Allied pilot training rates -
assuming instead that some of them actually go up with the end of the War in Europe. Too a lesser degree, it is also possible to put
in ships. In fact, stock has "ships that never were" - only planned - but not delivered because the war ended. Why not just do that for all
the ships planned? We have a gigantic force of British bombers arriving afther the historical war ends - and a French expeitionary force.
So someone has done similar things already.

But here - Contex goes farther - and wants more dynamic control over what is produced - not just not ending production too soon.

First - contradiction the critics - this can indeed be done. At a great penalty in work for somebody (the modder). Just as we can build roads, rail lines, probably canals, - and implement seasons - if we modify pwhexe - we can also probably modify the game during execution in some ways. Thanks to the wonderful feature of AE to update the database during play. The question isn't can it be done - it is how to do it well? Better still - are there ways we can do it without modifying the files? Under player control?

2A) The way to do it well is to write rules to limit changes - to determine their cost in time and political points and resources of various kinds - and to provide some context. Changes that mess up stuff going to the War in Europe also mess up when that war ends - so probably are forbidden - otherwise they modify when that war ends - when the Suez opens up - when units become available - etc.

2B) One thing one can do is to make ships with upgrades defined in the mod. I have experimented with this to a degree, and on both sides. Right now, Japan has the option not to convert its Chitose class CVS into CVLs. We could give the Allies all its CA and CL - as planned - and let them convert to CVL to the degree the player is willliing to lose the CA and CL to get them - just as one example. We also might create a virtual conversion - not a real one - think of it as a "different utilization of resources" - the main one being steel - the next most important being shipyard capacity. Give the Allies the historical planned battleships - and let them "convert" into Midways or Essex type carriers for example.

3) Another concept is to give the Allies all the planes they might build in ALL contingencies - more than they can even use. Then let the player sort out what planes he wants? To some degree, ths really happened. We could throw in some really interesting planes to - the Lone Ranger for example - and if you don't like it - don't use it. In a very minor way, I do this with the Martin Mars. The first production example is made something like Nov 43. But only 5 or 6 total got built (of 20 ordered). I give the Allies one a month from that first production example - and if they don't want more than 5 or 6 - they can simply not use em. This practice could be extended to many types, and on bigger scales than 1 per month.

4) It appears that land units can be disbanded. Air units certainly can. So we put in all the various units - seaplane carrier groups for the AV if they were completed as actually designed (with catapults - and landing gear - as CVS) - and if the player elects not to take them in that form (instead taking them as AV by conversion) - he also can disband the air groups. Maybe we make all the land units for all contingencies - and the player disbands what he does not want? And needs to do that - to get devices in the pools.

One thing - it appears that devices produce too easily at too little cost. Review of device production will help force the players to need to not have too many units - or stop getting replacements as needed. This needs to be thought through - but in principle - if someone is willing to do the work - one could put much of the concept right in the mod - with no need to modify the files during a game.

[JeffroK]

These are good thoughts, but as LoBaron says many dont want any Allied flexibility.

However there could be even further deveolpment in the game if the japanese side could have even wilder dreams than Scn2 which does call for this flexible Allied response.

But I think you will be waiting till 2020 for AE2.0

[el cid again]

And I can say from experience with WITP that a major mod effort - even if a whole team volunteers to do specialized sub-sections of the task - can easily take 2 or 3 years - before you even realize it. Just to run a "quick" test game to learn AE - "only" addressing a few items that are missing (like key location or units) - ended up taking 2 months.

But it is a good way to get Allied players willing to play a true "Japan enhansed scenario" - give them some options and do not tie them to choices that make no sense whatever in the game world with campaigns progressing very different from history.

Anyway - free thinking should be encouraged - and just as I intended to encourage Contex, I am myself encouraged by JeffK - nicely done.