Tweaking the Japanese/Allied Economies

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Since I'm not good at doing the figures...and there are people that do much better at it.

Anshan, the Showa Steel Works by 1942 was producing 3.6 million tons of Iron bars and Steel, and was said to be outproducing plants on the Japanese home islands. There were over 700 industries built up around it by 1940. The Japanese invested heavily in this area

Just wondering, is this location under-represented in game based on its historical importance? Granted, this would likely have the opposite effect of what we are trying to accomplish by reducing the amount of resources moved, since the HI would be able to take fuel and resource produced in Korea to make supply.

I'm thinking rather an increase in the RC there to represent the processed, but not yet used steel and iron production?

Currently 360 RC producing 7200 RP per day for 2,628,000 RP per year. If I am figuring right, and counting the steel + iron as a raw material to be transported, in 1942 you'd need to increase resources to ~490 to equal an output of 3.6 million/year. That is only if you keep the current RC output of 20 RP/RC.

Perhaps an increase of resource centers here instead of HI or LI since we don't actually transport steel and iron?

Maybe I'm over-thinking this?

I think this is an answer for those that complain about mising Japanese shipping (even though JWE proved what was missing was truly minute). Because HI is pooled, there is a certain amount of RL heavy industrila output like coke and steel that does not have to be delivered to the HI. It is what I would call the Phantom Merchant Marine - not visible, not interceptabel, not sinkable. The Allies have some too as was brought up earlier here

Sounds like both sides of the argument shouldn't be complaining about the missing ships then. [;)]

Basically AE is skipping the shipping of the intermediate product...that is the refined materials that aren't yet put into a ship hull or engine. Those refined but not put to use materials are the HI pool.

The argument also works for the phantom allied ships, since they get supply injections that did not have to go through the primary (refining) and intermediate (manufactured widgets) that end up as the final product (supply, ships, planes, etc).

The game abstracts the various steps into really 1 or 2 total. The end production of supply and the HI points that go into making other things like ships, LCU squads, etc.

Seems that I finally see the big picture, instead of zeroing in on the various parts. [:)]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

ORIGINAL: vettim89




If you are willing to mess with the PWHEX file you can alter the autovictory conditions also. Increase the value of the RL bases that were truly high value to Japan, increase the value of bases that were just out of reach of Japan in RL like Noumea, and decrease some of the Allied padding (ContUS) and an new autovictory arise. That however is a different discussion all together

Base victory points is an editor change. Not PWHEX change. It's super easy.

Bradley,

Is it on the locations screen? I didn't see it so just assumed it was hard coded into the PWHEX. My mistake.

[treespider]

Bump because this was/is a good thread...

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Since I'm not good at doing the figures...and there are people that do much better at it.

Anshan, the Showa Steel Works by 1942 was producing 3.6 million tons of Iron bars and Steel, and was said to be outproducing plants on the Japanese home islands. There were over 700 industries built up around it by 1940. The Japanese invested heavily in this area

Just wondering, is this location under-represented in game based on its historical importance? Granted, this would likely have the opposite effect of what we are trying to accomplish by reducing the amount of resources moved, since the HI would be able to take fuel and resource produced in Korea to make supply.

I'm thinking rather an increase in the RC there to represent the processed, but not yet used steel and iron production?

Currently 360 RC producing 7200 RP per day for 2,628,000 RP per year. If I am figuring right, and counting the steel + iron as a raw material to be transported, in 1942 you'd need to increase resources to ~490 to equal an output of 3.6 million/year. That is only if you keep the current RC output of 20 RP/RC.

Perhaps an increase of resource centers here instead of HI or LI since we don't actually transport steel and iron?

Maybe I'm over-thinking this?

I think this is an answer for those that complain about mising Japanese shipping (even though JWE proved what was missing was truly minute). Because HI is pooled, there is a certain amount of RL heavy industrila output like coke and steel that does not have to be delivered to the HI. It is what I would call the Phantom Merchant Marine - not visible, not interceptabel, not sinkable. The Allies have some too as was brought up earlier here

Sounds like both sides of the argument shouldn't be complaining about the missing ships then. [;)]

Basically AE is skipping the shipping of the intermediate product...that is the refined materials that aren't yet put into a ship hull or engine. Those refined but not put to use materials are the HI pool.

The argument also works for the phantom allied ships, since they get supply injections that did not have to go through the primary (refining) and intermediate (manufactured widgets) that end up as the final product (supply, ships, planes, etc).

The game abstracts the various steps into really 1 or 2 total. The end production of supply and the HI points that go into making other things like ships, LCU squads, etc.

Seems that I finally see the big picture, instead of zeroing in on the various parts. [:)]

AE is missing the finished product as well. But critically, AE is missing the NEED to ship iron ore and coal to Japan - because of vast OVERPRODUCTION
of these in Japan itself. Look at Fukuoka - a big industrial city to be sure - but 960 resources? Who is smoking what? Take away about 4000 resource centers in Japan - put em in Korea and Manchukuo - and Japan will need to move resources to feed its Industry. And increase indusry in both - because
they were the real heart of Japanese production. "The Miracle of Manchukuo" - studied only by Russian economists as far as I can tell - produced two digit growth throughout the Great Depression - attracting 2 million immigrants EACH from China, Russia, Korea and Japan. The Zaibatsu were banned -
promoting small and medium enterprise - the most efficient way to grow an economy. It is the Russian invasion of Manchuria that really ends the war -
mostly not destroyed by bombing or prevented from production by lack of fuel or resources - it is a really big deal. But you cannot tell in AE.

[treespider]

Bump

[Halsey]

bump...

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

ORIGINAL: vettim89

First reduce the supply out from HI to 1 or 0 . Personally I would prefer 0.

You propose the elimination, at a stroke, of about 55% of the Japanese player's supply generation capability? That would make for some short games, and hollow victories, I suspect!

I am experimenting with a mod in which Japan must import both oil and resources. The really big change is gutting the vast numbers of "free resources" right in Japan itself - an island nation famous for being resource poor. I probably did not go far enough - but we will see. I also set up a system of Allied industries that reward exporting resources - or moving oil to places like Australia and New Zealand - where resources are ample - but industry needs imports. The idea is to give merchant ships on both sides a real job - something besides delivering units and supplies for them to eat - or what Joe used to call "AKs to burn" -

I think this concept is very well founded - and probably more can be done than I have yet done. In fact, the significance of many places is their economic assets - and only if these are needed will players have a real context for their strategies.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Bump because this was/is a good thread...

I got busy doing a minor mod for a test to learn AE - and was not reading much in the Forums. But I am impressed with the idea this was/is
a good thread. I wish to say that Treespider's mod has some very interesting ideas related to economics - and things like the strength of China.
I was referred to it - and found it very helpful - in particular making the map make more sense. [The AE map is fabulous - but many of its roads and RR go "nowhere" - the locations defining why they exist not being defined. Treespider eliminated most of that with his work on adding locations in China.
I decided that a more modest effort in China - but extended map wide - is a nice way to achieve many of his effects in many places - not just in China.]
Anyway - clearly Treespider has really good ideas about the game and about its economic dimensions - and his mod is very much an enhancement of the original design.